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  • FIRST POST
    • ex-pat scot
    • By ex-pat scot 9th Jun 17, 4:30 PM
    • 214Posts
    • 233Thanks
    ex-pat scot
    DB Transfer
    • #1
    • 9th Jun 17, 4:30 PM
    DB Transfer 9th Jun 17 at 4:30 PM
    And so I join the ranks of those seeking information and advice on transfer of my DB scheme into my SIPP.

    The TVAS in June 2015 was £69,000.
    The TVAS received today is just over £101,000.
    As such, I am comfortably in the range in which transfer advice is required, and will need to use a pensions transfer specialist.

    I am aware that the costs (and advice) can vary tremendously, and would like to understand what a decent price for the work might be, and any anecdotes / recommendations from recent transfers.
    My SIPP is with Alliance Trust, and they will only accept transfers where positive recommendation has been received.
    (I could open a AJ Bell account, who merely require that advice has been sought, and use them as a second account, then transfer out into AT later).

    Any practical pointers?
Page 1
    • bostonerimus
    • By bostonerimus 9th Jun 17, 5:49 PM
    • 1,121 Posts
    • 629 Thanks
    bostonerimus
    • #2
    • 9th Jun 17, 5:49 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jun 17, 5:49 PM
    Why are you transferring your pension to a SIPP? Have you compared the income and benefits of the two arrangements?
    Misanthrope in search of similar for mutual loathing
    • ex-pat scot
    • By ex-pat scot 9th Jun 17, 6:22 PM
    • 214 Posts
    • 233 Thanks
    ex-pat scot
    • #3
    • 9th Jun 17, 6:22 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jun 17, 6:22 PM
    Several reasons:


    1. impaired health
    2. ability to access the funds @55 if in DC, vs significant actuarial reduction if accessed via DB @55
    3. flexibility and alignment with my existing DC funds and investment strategy
    • tacpot12
    • By tacpot12 9th Jun 17, 6:30 PM
    • 738 Posts
    • 636 Thanks
    tacpot12
    • #4
    • 9th Jun 17, 6:30 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jun 17, 6:30 PM
    I'd expect the advice to cost up to £1000. I paid that a year ago for advice on two pension transfers.

    Expect to have to spend an hour with the IFA at the outset and an hour to receive their recommendation.
    • bostonerimus
    • By bostonerimus 9th Jun 17, 7:31 PM
    • 1,121 Posts
    • 629 Thanks
    bostonerimus
    • #5
    • 9th Jun 17, 7:31 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jun 17, 7:31 PM
    Several reasons:


    1. impaired health
    2. ability to access the funds @55 if in DC, vs significant actuarial reduction if accessed via DB @55
    3. flexibility and alignment with my existing DC funds and investment strategy
    Originally posted by ex-pat scot
    Poor health does make a DB pension potentially a bad deal and longevity is always the trickiest parameter in any forecast. But consider that a DB pension can be a nice diversifer if you have DC funds and it's good to do the actuarial calculation to see at what age the two plans cross over.
    Misanthrope in search of similar for mutual loathing
    • CFrog
    • By CFrog 10th Jun 17, 8:57 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    CFrog
    • #6
    • 10th Jun 17, 8:57 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Jun 17, 8:57 PM
    You may wish to look at the thread below for some pointers on fees.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=72280296&postcount=15

    I am in the latter stages of transferring a DB pension and am using Intelligent Pensions as IFA to effect the transfer into a SIPP. The whole process has taken about 3 months. Charges are £1k +VAT for the TVAS and report (paid in advance) plus 1% of the transferred sum upon completion. (If I wanted the IFA to manage the funds going forward the x'fer fees are lower and there is the ongoing charge).

    Although I already have a SIPP with Hargreaves Lansdown, they told me they were not willing to accept funds where the IFA had completed the TVAS Report and did not recommend transferring the DB Pension. (As you know) A J Bell are willing to accept transfers in from 'insistent customers'.

    I'm not sure how ill health would affect your IFA's recommendation but in my situation I know the TVAS calcs themselves did not 'point' to a positive recommendation; my move was supported because I made a written 'case' to the IFA to support my application setting out a whole range of factors such as: other income (key here was the fact that the DB Pension is not central to my retirement needs), expenditure during retirement, attitude to risk etc. On the latter point, you may want complete the Fina Metrica on-line self-assessment that gives some indication of your attitude to (financial) risk.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 10th Jun 17, 11:12 PM
    • 23,444 Posts
    • 13,630 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #7
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:12 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:12 PM
    impaired health
    Are you eligible to take the DB pension without AD on grounds of ill health?
    • davieg11
    • By davieg11 10th Jun 17, 11:26 PM
    • 253 Posts
    • 150 Thanks
    davieg11
    • #8
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:26 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jun 17, 11:26 PM
    What is your DB Pension worth today? Mine was £2500 per year with RPI to a maximum of 5% and 50% spouce payment in death. I transferred mine with a CETV of £67,000. TVAS Report was free and transfer was 3% (£2000). It was an old deferred pension and not my main retirement needs, but I got a positive recommendation anyway. After your IFA transfers it, you can then transfer it to your SIPP. My 1st DB transfer took 3 months to transfer to Aviva, who then sent me a 30 days 'change your mind letter', so it was 4 months before I could log in to see funds. I then tried to change the funds to a more higher risk and Aviva said I had to contact IFA or write a letter, so I just transferred it to my current Standard Life Pension which took around another 3 weeks to complete. My 2nd DB as mentioned above (£67k), has taken 5 months to transfer into a Royal London pension. I've just received log on details and I like the portfolio set up but the IFA has put an ongoing charge of 1% on top of Royal London's charge of 0.45%, when we had agreed a charge of 0.65%. So looks like I will be transferring this one to my current Standard Life Pension Fund as well!!
    • ex-pat scot
    • By ex-pat scot 11th Jun 17, 8:50 AM
    • 214 Posts
    • 233 Thanks
    ex-pat scot
    • #9
    • 11th Jun 17, 8:50 AM
    • #9
    • 11th Jun 17, 8:50 AM
    Are you eligible to take the DB pension without AD on grounds of ill health?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    No. Thankfully not terminal, but sobering nevertheless.
    • ex-pat scot
    • By ex-pat scot 11th Jun 17, 8:52 AM
    • 214 Posts
    • 233 Thanks
    ex-pat scot
    You may wish to look at the thread below for some pointers on fees.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=72280296&postcount=15

    I am in the latter stages of transferring a DB pension and am using Intelligent Pensions as IFA to effect the transfer into a SIPP. The whole process has taken about 3 months. Charges are £1k +VAT for the TVAS and report (paid in advance) plus 1% of the transferred sum upon completion. (If I wanted the IFA to manage the funds going forward the x'fer fees are lower and there is the ongoing charge).

    Although I already have a SIPP with Hargreaves Lansdown, they told me they were not willing to accept funds where the IFA had completed the TVAS Report and did not recommend transferring the DB Pension. (As you know) A J Bell are willing to accept transfers in from 'insistent customers'.

    I'm not sure how ill health would affect your IFA's recommendation but in my situation I know the TVAS calcs themselves did not 'point' to a positive recommendation; my move was supported because I made a written 'case' to the IFA to support my application setting out a whole range of factors such as: other income (key here was the fact that the DB Pension is not central to my retirement needs), expenditure during retirement, attitude to risk etc. On the latter point, you may want complete the Fina Metrica on-line self-assessment that gives some indication of your attitude to (financial) risk.
    Originally posted by CFrog
    Thanks. Intelligent Pensions were the first I thought of, but have agreed this week with the regulator to stop doing transfer advice.

    I have the supporting information you note, thanks; it will be a similar approach I will take I think.
    • CFrog
    • By CFrog 11th Jun 17, 9:35 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 36 Thanks
    CFrog
    Intelligent Pensions were the first I thought of, but have agreed this week with the regulator to stop doing transfer advice.
    I understand they are looking to re-start DB transfers once they have agreed on the nature of the guarantees (my word) the regulator wants over the type of funds the DB monies will be moved into. Is this your understanding?

    Who will you be using now then?
    • Linton
    • By Linton 11th Jun 17, 9:49 AM
    • 8,495 Posts
    • 8,438 Thanks
    Linton
    https://www.ft.com/content/fe1c7da0-4b7e-11e7-a3f4-c742b9791d43
    • ex-pat scot
    • By ex-pat scot 11th Jun 17, 11:57 AM
    • 214 Posts
    • 233 Thanks
    ex-pat scot
    That's the fella.
    • matchmade
    • By matchmade 13th Jun 17, 5:54 PM
    • 57 Posts
    • 41 Thanks
    matchmade
    What an exhausting, fiddly process!
    I too am battling my way through a DB transfer to my Interactive Investor SIPP. What a ludicrous drawn-out process. It's a small pension worth only £4,450 (with 5% RPI and 50% to spouse after death) with a transfer value of £108,600. I also don't need this income in retirement, as I have other sources including rented property and dividends from my own company, so I would much prefer the money to be in a SIPP where I can keep the money growing after retirement, use drawdown if needed, and hand anything left over to my wife when I die as part of her inheritance. My wife could then receive 100% of any regular drawdown (e.g. the 3-4% annual dividends), not 50% of the DB annuity, and can hand any remaining lump sum over to our daughter in turn when she dies.

    I've rung 12 IFAs altogether, and only two were prepared to handle the transfer, even if I promised to sign a declaration in blood that I would never make a malpractice claim against them. The national brand Tenon were the most efficient and matched the other chap's prices, i.e. £600 incl VAT for the assessment, and £2,000 more to handle the transfer. I would have preferred to handle the transfer paperwork myself, once I've got my hands on the letter approving the transfer, but this apparently "isn't allowed".

    The feature that swung me to Tenon was that they did a pre-assessment of my finances and my rationale for the transfer, and said they were highly likely to recommend the transfer; this greatly reduced the risk that I would pay for the advice and then receive a negative recommendation, forcing me into the hands of AJ Bell as the only platform that accepts "insistent transferors".

    The remaining fly in the ointment is that Tenon can't transfer me to Interactive Investor: they and Hargreaves Lansdown are execution-only and for obscure reasons Tenon don't allow themselves to use them. So I am in the ridiculous position of having to transfer my DB to another SIPP provider, then immediately close that SIPP down and transfer the money again to Interactive Investor, no doubt with another dose of fees to pay. We are currently looking at which provider will be the cheapest for this "intermediate" SIPP to transfer in and transfer out again - but how ridiculous that this is so difficult!
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 13th Jun 17, 6:25 PM
    • 89,585 Posts
    • 56,048 Thanks
    dunstonh
    I've rung 12 IFAs altogether, and only two were prepared to handle the transfer, even if I promised to sign a declaration in blood that I would never make a malpractice claim against them.
    1 - Only 1 in 10 IFAs hold the pension transfer permissions. So, your ratio seems about right.
    2 - Your declaration carries absolutely no weight and the FOS would ignore it.

    The national brand Tenon were the most efficient and matched the other chap's prices, i.e. £600 incl VAT for the assessment, and £2,000 more to handle the transfer. I would have preferred to handle the transfer paperwork myself, once I've got my hands on the letter approving the transfer, but this apparently "isn't allowed".
    That may be their internal position but it is allowed.

    The feature that swung me to Tenon was that they did a pre-assessment of my finances and my rationale for the transfer, and said they were highly likely to recommend the transfer; this greatly reduced the risk that I would pay for the advice and then receive a negative recommendation, forcing me into the hands of AJ Bell as the only platform that accepts "insistent transferors".
    To be honest, that should not be a feature as you have just described the process that all IFAs should follow.

    The remaining fly in the ointment is that Tenon can't transfer me to Interactive Investor: they and Hargreaves Lansdown are execution-only and for obscure reasons Tenon don't allow themselves to use them.
    IFAs wouldnt use them even if they could. Better alternatives exist on the advice side. However, the reason is not obscure. For an IFA to place business with a provider, the provider has to accept business from the IFA.

    We are currently looking at which provider will be the cheapest for this "intermediate" SIPP to transfer in and transfer out again - but how ridiculous that this is so difficult!
    In which case, it probably wouldnt be a SIPP. However, there are plenty of providers that would not charge in/out on that basis.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • ex-pat scot
    • By ex-pat scot 6th Jul 17, 3:29 PM
    • 214 Posts
    • 233 Thanks
    ex-pat scot
    I've had a quote (after a lot of chasing) for 5% ie £5000.
    That feels rather on the expensive side.


    I am looking elsewhere...
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