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    • newbieboy
    • By newbieboy 9th Jun 17, 11:29 AM
    • 93Posts
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    newbieboy
    SAR Request - Queries
    • #1
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:29 AM
    SAR Request - Queries 9th Jun 17 at 11:29 AM
    Hello,

    I am looking to file a SAR request against my employee imminently, but i was wondering if it was possible to clarify a couple of questions I had before doing so.

    The queries are based off the ICO template from their website here:

    1) When it comes to specifying emails between 'A' and 'B', can this be a number of name individuals and not myself?

    2) If they provide information and I know there are missing emails, what recourse is there?


    The reason i ask is that my employer has (amongst many other things);

    1) Conducted an investigation into me for following their own policy
    2) Made accusations against me that are completely unfounded and based there punishments on unsubstantiated fabrications (I can prove these).
    3) Step well beyond there responsibilities and reach to do what they have done.
    4) Defamed my character by accusing me of things that aren't true to a customer.
    5) Lied to the customer about my situation to protect themselves.
    6) Point blank refused to put anything into an email to me, (despite there own policy mandating it).

    I have a handful of emails i was passed by somebody involved, which highlights and proves many of the things they are doing, and the lies they are telling, however i know there are a number of emails between my Line Management that would nail them to the wall.

    a very senior person has raised a complaint against those involved and after getting no traction (protecting that part of the business) he suggested i speak to an employment lawyer (several other people aware have also strongly recommended this).

    I am looking to leave imminently, solely due to their treatment of me and have a job lined up but I know they have done this to so many people. :-(
Page 1
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 9th Jun 17, 11:46 AM
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    Guest101
    • #2
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:46 AM
    • #2
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:46 AM
    Hello,

    I am looking to file a SAR request against my employee - Employer? imminently, but i was wondering if it was possible to clarify a couple of questions I had before doing so.

    The queries are based off the ICO template from their website here:

    1) When it comes to specifying emails between 'A' and 'B', can this be a number of name individuals and not myself? - The information can only be about yourself. No-one else

    2) If they provide information and I know there are missing emails, what recourse is there? - very little.


    The reason i ask is that my employer has (amongst many other things);

    1) Conducted an investigation into me for following their own policy - Do you mean not following?
    2) Made accusations against me that are completely unfounded and based there punishments on unsubstantiated fabrications (I can prove these). - that's not relevant
    3) Step well beyond there responsibilities and reach to do what they have done. - give an example, it seems unlikely given the rest of your post
    4) Defamed my character by accusing me of things that aren't true to a customer. - There's a difference between saying 'X is currently under investigation or' and ' X has done this'(also it's their customer)
    5) Lied to the customer about my situation to protect themselves. - It's their customer
    6) Point blank refused to put anything into an email to me, (despite there own policy mandating it). - And?

    I have a handful of emails i was passed by somebody involved, which highlights and proves many of the things they are doing, and the lies they are telling, however i know there are a number of emails between my Line Management that would nail them to the wall. - You cant have those.

    a very senior person has raised a complaint against those involved and after getting no traction (protecting that part of the business) he suggested i speak to an employment lawyer (several other people aware have also strongly recommended this). - how long have you worked there?

    I am looking to leave imminently, solely due to their treatment of me and have a job lined up but I know they have done this to so many people. :-(
    Originally posted by newbieboy


    What is it you expect to get?
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 9th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
    • 17,863 Posts
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    agrinnall
    • #3
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
    What are you hoping to achieve? If you have another job and your employer is willing to let you go is there any benefit to you of taking this any further?

    As to your initial query I very much doubt if they will provide any emails that you are not a party to.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 9th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
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    Guest101
    • #4
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
    Oh just found this http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5622801


    You've worked there less than two years, your claim isn't worth very much - unless they've discriminated against you on the basis of a protected characteristic.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Jun 17, 11:52 AM
    • 3,323 Posts
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    sangie595
    • #5
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:52 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Jun 17, 11:52 AM
    What is it you expect to get?
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Quite. According to previous posts the OP had less than two years employment- in fact less than a year it would seem. On this because there is no evidence that there is any recourse for them, even if they got the emails, and even if they prove what they are claiming. Best to move on. You have another job, and I'd suggest concentrating on that is of greater value than fighting a battle that there is no point in winning.
    • newbieboy
    • By newbieboy 10th Jun 17, 10:30 AM
    • 93 Posts
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    newbieboy
    • #6
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:30 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Jun 17, 10:30 AM
    So in response to all of the above questions;

    No, I mean following their process. I requested process clarification from HR, i then followed that process as per policy and instruction and they have complained about that as it didn't give them the information they claim they need. They also accused me of submitting multiple attempts to circumvent/lie about things to benefit myself. I didn't, and have the proof of that.

    My employer have made accusations against me that are serious, those accusations have put my security clearances that i hold at risk and impacted the perception others have of me, to the point of impacting my availability of jobs.

    Said employer has also openly discussed my situation with other junior members of staff that have no need or right to know (including having them present in confidential conference calls with HR, without notifying other people).

    Over-stepping there responsibilities includes attempting to look into my finances, something they are not allowed to do. As well as attempting to prevent me talking to my partner about me looking at other jobs etc or talking to the customer. (For context, as a former government employee I have contractual obligations to them for a duration of time after i leave. They also own my security clearances, and mandate that I have to keep them up to date with information pertinent to that). My employer wants that information to funnel through them, despite being told by the customer that they are not allowed to do that due to the fact its personally sensitive.

    I have worked there just under a year.

    I understand the information i request can only be about myself, the query around correspondences was to whether i could request emails between other members of staff about me and those not directly sent to me.

    They have told the customer I have done X, not that I am under investigation (Which in itself is a breach of their contract). I have a very good relationship with the customer as i used to work for them so although the impact as minimal, they are concerned around what is happening. By not notifying them I am under investigation, they breach their contract and by not allowing me to talk to them, they are also causing me to breach.

    This situation was raised with their ethics board who turned around and didn't care, it has also been elevated to their senior staff again nothing happened. A senior member of ethics then raised it again as it came to light they had been making claims that senior security staff, and others had been involved in the process and made decisions to implement restrictions on my employment when in actual fact they hadn't been involved at all.

    They have repeatedly breached their contract with regards to this process, they haven't followed any of the ACAS?! guidelines or there own.

    This doesn't even get started on the corporate fraud side of things (forcing staff to change timesheet codes to bill the customer for work that hasn't been done, or charging them for unrelated work..)
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 10th Jun 17, 3:31 PM
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    sangie595
    • #7
    • 10th Jun 17, 3:31 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jun 17, 3:31 PM
    So in response to all of the above questions;

    No, I mean following their process. I requested process clarification from HR, i then followed that process as per policy and instruction and they have complained about that as it didn't give them the information they claim they need. They also accused me of submitting multiple attempts to circumvent/lie about things to benefit myself. I didn't, and have the proof of that.

    My employer have made accusations against me that are serious, those accusations have put my security clearances that i hold at risk and impacted the perception others have of me, to the point of impacting my availability of jobs.

    Said employer has also openly discussed my situation with other junior members of staff that have no need or right to know (including having them present in confidential conference calls with HR, without notifying other people).

    Over-stepping there responsibilities includes attempting to look into my finances, something they are not allowed to do. As well as attempting to prevent me talking to my partner about me looking at other jobs etc or talking to the customer. (For context, as a former government employee I have contractual obligations to them for a duration of time after i leave. They also own my security clearances, and mandate that I have to keep them up to date with information pertinent to that). My employer wants that information to funnel through them, despite being told by the customer that they are not allowed to do that due to the fact its personally sensitive.

    I have worked there just under a year.

    I understand the information i request can only be about myself, the query around correspondences was to whether i could request emails between other members of staff about me and those not directly sent to me.

    They have told the customer I have done X, not that I am under investigation (Which in itself is a breach of their contract). I have a very good relationship with the customer as i used to work for them so although the impact as minimal, they are concerned around what is happening. By not notifying them I am under investigation, they breach their contract and by not allowing me to talk to them, they are also causing me to breach.

    This situation was raised with their ethics board who turned around and didn't care, it has also been elevated to their senior staff again nothing happened. A senior member of ethics then raised it again as it came to light they had been making claims that senior security staff, and others had been involved in the process and made decisions to implement restrictions on my employment when in actual fact they hadn't been involved at all.

    They have repeatedly breached their contract with regards to this process, they haven't followed any of the ACAS?! guidelines or there own.

    This doesn't even get started on the corporate fraud side of things (forcing staff to change timesheet codes to bill the customer for work that hasn't been done, or charging them for unrelated work..)
    Originally posted by newbieboy
    Setting aside that last point, which is something that, if true, you should formally report with evidence of fraud, because that would appear to be criminal activity (and be very careful about saying that if you have no evidence, because it might come back to bite you).....

    So what? It's really bad practice to breach confidentiality. But it isn't illegal. If they want to tell people things about you, then there is no law that stops them doing it. They have made accusations, yes - but how do they investigate someone if they don't? Keep it all secret? They attempted to look into your finances. So? What did they do - steal your bank passwords? Redirect your statements? Or ask you? Because of the latter, you don't have to comply, but equally they are allowed to ask.

    I could continue, but I won't. Suffice it to say that I think you are over egging the situation in a way that is not helpful to you. Wherever the truth lies, this is not sounding like something that is going to result in anything more than lots of mud slinging in both directions. You have a new job. Let it be and move on.
    • newbieboy
    • By newbieboy 11th Jun 17, 9:08 PM
    • 93 Posts
    • 47 Thanks
    newbieboy
    • #8
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:08 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:08 PM
    The fraud is being actively pursued by a number of parties, and is backed up by a number of witnesses (myself included) who have provided evidence of it.

    The point is the company have made accusations that they can't substantiate. They have performed an investigation into a member of staff for following their own guidelines and then they have formally invoked punishments on the employee (myself) despite having no evidence to support their stance and despite all the accusations being unfounded. Not only that they haven't even remotely followed their own guidance (after claiming they have), several members of staff lied about the involvement of senior staff members to myself in a "formal interview" and they have implemented controls on a staff member that are excessive and based on nothing.
    Those controls have impacted my working and personal life as they have sent me to the other side of the country for five months and kept me off the local site which i am based at.

    Not only that the head of security and multiple other members of staff have raised it formally and still nothing has been done, hardly "over egging" the situation if very senior members of staff have filled complaints against those involved and advised (in a non official capacity) i should speak to a lawyer and try and collate as much evidence as i could..
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 11th Jun 17, 9:50 PM
    • 2,925 Posts
    • 2,720 Thanks
    Undervalued
    • #9
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:50 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Jun 17, 9:50 PM
    The fraud is being actively pursued by a number of parties, and is backed up by a number of witnesses (myself included) who have provided evidence of it.

    The point is the company have made accusations that they can't substantiate. They have performed an investigation into a member of staff for following their own guidelines and then they have formally invoked punishments on the employee (myself) despite having no evidence to support their stance and despite all the accusations being unfounded. Not only that they haven't even remotely followed their own guidance (after claiming they have), several members of staff lied about the involvement of senior staff members to myself in a "formal interview" and they have implemented controls on a staff member that are excessive and based on nothing.
    Those controls have impacted my working and personal life as they have sent me to the other side of the country for five months and kept me off the local site which i am based at.

    Not only that the head of security and multiple other members of staff have raised it formally and still nothing has been done, hardly "over egging" the situation if very senior members of staff have filled complaints against those involved and advised (in a non official capacity) i should speak to a lawyer and try and collate as much evidence as i could..
    Originally posted by newbieboy
    If you genuinely believe any crimes have been committed then report the matter to the police or other relevant authority.

    Otherwise move on!

    You would do well to remember the old proverb "Before setting out for revenge, first dig two graves".

    Somehow though I doubt you will listen to any advice unless it coincides with your own pre-conception.
    Last edited by Undervalued; 11-06-2017 at 9:55 PM.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Jun 17, 10:07 PM
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    sangie595
    The fraud is being actively pursued by a number of parties, and is backed up by a number of witnesses (myself included) who have provided evidence of it.

    The point is the company have made accusations that they can't substantiate. They do not have to substantiate allegations. That is what an investigation is for - to see whether it is substantiated or not.They have performed an investigation into a member of staff for following their own guidelines and then they have formally invoked punishments on the employee (myself) despite having no evidence to support their stance and despite all the accusations being unfounded. That is your opinion. Not only that they haven't even remotely followed their own guidance (after claiming they have), several members of staff lied about the involvement of senior staff members to myself in a "formal interview" and they have implemented controls on a staff member that are excessive and based on nothing. They are the employer. They can put in place any controls they want.
    Those controls have impacted my working and personal life as they have sent me to the other side of the country for five months and kept me off the local site which i am based at. They are entitled to keep you off a site if that is what they want.

    Not only that the head of security and multiple other members of staff have raised it formally and still nothing has been done, hardly "over egging" the situation if very senior members of staff have filled complaints against those involved and advised (in a non official capacity) That means you have no evidence and they have no clue i should speak to a lawyer and try and collate as much evidence as i could..
    Originally posted by newbieboy
    Give it up. Unless you have an awful lot of actual evidence - none of which is mentioned here - of wrongdoing in law. Your opinion that it isn't right is of no interest to the law. Fishing for evidence in emails that you cannot prove even exist is not going to get you that evidence. And even if it did - so what? Yes, ok, they may be nasty and horrible and not people that you want to work for. Which law have they broken? Which court will you take them to? And what redress do you think you will get?

    Let me put this another way. And you aren't going to like this, but I will say it anyway because you need to hear it. Right now you have not a shred of evidence of anything, and even if you got that evidence there is nothing to suggest it is evidence of anything! You really want to wind this up with threats and complaints when they know where you have gone to work? A place where you also don't have 2 years service already? You think they can't get nastier? They can, and they probably will. Right now this sounds like a bitter and twisted rant. I make no judgement in saying that - but you have no evidence of illegal activity. Do you really want them coming to your new employer saying that you are some kind of unstable person who makes groundless threats against the employer? Do you have total confidence the new employer will side with you?

    Please - unless you have already got evidence of illegal activity and are prepared to hand that to the relevant authorities or to go to court yourself, give this up. The chances are that it will only get worse for you. Not one bit for them.

    Right now you are accusing them of exactly the same thing that you say they are accusing you of - unsubstantiated allegations without any evidence to support them. You have a chance to move on and start over, without them in the picture. Please don't make a mess of that chance.
    • newbieboy
    • By newbieboy 13th Jun 17, 4:19 PM
    • 93 Posts
    • 47 Thanks
    newbieboy
    Hello,

    So I am happy to take advice, otherwise I wouldn't be here.. I have also taken advice from a number of other sources, including friendly lawyers who have also said it is worth pursuing.

    With regards to evidence - yes, i have plenty - the point in the SAR was merely to gain further evidence of their actions. I did highlight in post one I had evidence in email form, I also have further evidence in forms etc submitted. With regards to the emails, i know they exist as i have seen them - I just wasn't CC'd/Bcc'd into them so don't have them to hand.
    Implying that I have no evidence because no action was taken is logical but wrong. No action is taken because certain members of staff (who have had significant levels of complaints filled against them both from staff internally, and third party sub-contractors) have been protected by certain senior staff members. However those seniors have recently (~2 weeks) moved on.

    Worth noting, this company has a number of lawsuits against them for similar things, all of which they have lost or settled recently, and the majority have come from our office.

    Regarding substantiating allegations, i get that, however the point is they made an allegation which they then "substantiated" with fake evidence to make it stick. Something that i can prove they have done, and something they have already been reprimanded for by seniors (but are refusing to budge on).

    My new job are aware of the current situation, another senior employee left very quickly after joining and we have had an open discussion with them and the CEO about the situation. They have been very accepting and their CEOs response was - sue! The current company is well known for their behaviour in the community I work in, most other companies hate them and the number of staff flooding out the front door highlights that the staff hate working there.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Jun 17, 4:28 PM
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    Guest101
    Hello,

    So I am happy to take advice, otherwise I wouldn't be here.. I have also taken advice from a number of other sources, including friendly lawyers who have also said it is worth pursuing. - You do not have employment rights, so what on earth are you claiming for?!

    With regards to evidence - yes, i have plenty - the point in the SAR was merely to gain further evidence of their actions. I did highlight in post one I had evidence in email form, I also have further evidence in forms etc submitted. With regards to the emails, i know they exist as i have seen them - I just wasn't CC'd/Bcc'd into them so don't have them to hand. - And you don't own them, you could not have them. That information is not yours
    Implying that I have no evidence because no action was taken is logical but wrong. No action is taken because certain members of staff (who have had significant levels of complaints filled against them both from staff internally, and third party sub-contractors) have been protected by certain senior staff members. However those seniors have recently (~2 weeks) moved on. - How is that relevant?

    Worth noting, this company has a number of lawsuits against them for similar things, all of which they have lost or settled recently, and the majority have come from our office. - Excellent, what for, what were the settlement amounts?

    Regarding substantiating allegations, i get that, however the point is they made an allegation which they then "substantiated" with fake evidence to make it stick. Something that i can prove they have done, and something they have already been reprimanded for by seniors (but are refusing to budge on).

    My new job are aware of the current situation, another senior employee left very quickly after joining and we have had an open discussion with them and the CEO about the situation. They have been very accepting and their CEOs response was - sue! The current company is well known for their behaviour in the community I work in, most other companies hate them and the number of staff flooding out the front door highlights that the staff hate working there.
    Originally posted by newbieboy

    Frankly the rest is irrelevant. What is it you are going to sue for??


    You worked there for less than a year, you aren't entitled to anything.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 13th Jun 17, 5:15 PM
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    sangie595
    What is it you are going to sue for??
    .
    Originally posted by Guest101
    You may as well give it up. The OP isn't going to listen, and there is not much point continuing to tell them that there is no case they can take against the employer because they don't have the required service. You can come round mine and watch paint dry if you like....
    • newbieboy
    • By newbieboy 13th Jun 17, 5:30 PM
    • 93 Posts
    • 47 Thanks
    newbieboy
    Well yes, breach of contract for not following their contractual disciplinary process.. which has no minimum time served requirement.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 13th Jun 17, 5:33 PM
    • 2,925 Posts
    • 2,720 Thanks
    Undervalued
    Well yes, breach of contract for not following their contractual disciplinary process.. which has no minimum time served requirement.
    Originally posted by newbieboy
    Yes but the maximum you will get out of that (assuming you actually win of course) is a few days pay to compensate for however long it would have taken to do it properly!

    Also, it is quite rare for a disciplinary process to be contractual so you would need to be very sure it actually was.
    • ceh209
    • By ceh209 13th Jun 17, 5:59 PM
    • 676 Posts
    • 463 Thanks
    ceh209
    Hi, I'm not going to comment on your individual situation, however I received data protection training from my employer which included some information about SARs.

    My employer (I'm not saying all are the same) is of the opinion that a SAR can cover emails where you are (to quote the phrase they used) 'substantially the subject' of the email.

    A SAR can also cover instant messages, if that's relevant/helpful to know for your situation.
    Excuse any mis-spelt replies, there's probably a cat sat on the keyboard
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 13th Jun 17, 6:12 PM
    • 3,323 Posts
    • 5,494 Thanks
    sangie595
    Hi, I'm not going to comment on your individual situation, however I received data protection training from my employer which included some information about SARs.

    My employer (I'm not saying all are the same) is of the opinion that a SAR can cover emails where you are (to quote the phrase they used) 'substantially the subject' of the email.

    A SAR can also cover instant messages, if that's relevant/helpful to know for your situation.
    Originally posted by ceh209
    Yes it can. But it can't make an employer give you a copy of an email that "doesn't exist". This is a case of seeing not being believing - the OP may have seen them, but they do not physically possess them. So when the employer says that they do not exist, how will the OP proceed? Not that there will be anything to proceed with.
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