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  • FIRST POST
    • fred246
    • By fred246 8th Jun 17, 11:08 AM
    • 776Posts
    • 432Thanks
    fred246
    My Car Experiments
    • #1
    • 8th Jun 17, 11:08 AM
    My Car Experiments 8th Jun 17 at 11:08 AM
    After a few years observing people and their cars I concluded:
    Cars are made by graduate engineers in fantastic factories to immense standards. OK they do engineer a few mistakes but generally a new car is in fantastic condition.
    They are sold and maintained by a network of people who are generally clueless.
    Taking a car for a service - it's a lottery if anything is done.
    Taking a car for a repair - equals collateral damage.
    So I take a new car. I look after it. Check tyre pressures and fluid levels. Service it to the schedule.
    If a component needs replacement I disassemble the car carefully, replace the component and then re-assemble it to 'as new' condition.
    I void the warranty because I don't want any garage messing with my car.
    So early on I pay for oil, filters etc and then as time goes on brake pads, discs, cambelts, exhausts.
    Very occasionally I replace an unexpected item like a sensor or a switch.
    The car is just like new year after year. Why wouldn't it be?
    The last one got to 17 years of faultless service before it rusted.
    My current one is at 13 years and 144K miles.
    I come on this forum and people are buying cars at 5 years plus and being told they've bought an old banger and they can't expect much.
    What's going on?
Page 1
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 8th Jun 17, 3:15 PM
    • 3,010 Posts
    • 6,651 Thanks
    onomatopoeia99
    • #2
    • 8th Jun 17, 3:15 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Jun 17, 3:15 PM
    I come on this forum and people are buying cars at 5 years plus and being told they've bought an old banger and they can't expect much.
    What's going on?
    Originally posted by fred246
    Don't know about five years, but when you get past about 12 years you're starting to get to potential "end-of-life / banger" territory, there's a good chance that a car won't have been properly maintained at some point during its life, services skipped etc. However, these days cars will last if looked after. Not like in the 70s / 80s where you could expect to need to do cylinder head decokes and rebores, even if it was serviced at the correct intervals and the floor and or sills would often rot, even if all the mechanical maintenance was done correctly.

    The car I parked in the office car park this morning is 17 years old with 122k miles on the clock. I've owned it 13 of those years and it still drives like a new one. I have it serviced at an independent marque specialist that I trust to actually do the work they charge me for, partly because I can afford it, partly because of lack of free time, and partly because I don't have the four post lift I'd need to get access to the engine (it's mid-engined and most servicing work is done from underneath, with the car level).

    These days I only work on the racing car.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 8th Jun 17, 3:23 PM
    • 12,966 Posts
    • 8,203 Thanks
    arcon5
    • #3
    • 8th Jun 17, 3:23 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Jun 17, 3:23 PM
    Well people don't go round telling forums their car is problem free leaving the small proportion of cars that run in to some problems... cars are just machine at the end of the day. Each one subject to different driving styles, terrains, journeys blah blah blah.

    Warranties like garages because many DIYers THINK they know what they are doing when the reality is practically speaking they don't and have only watched a 5 minute YouTube video.
    • Johnmcl7
    • By Johnmcl7 8th Jun 17, 3:23 PM
    • 2,255 Posts
    • 1,475 Thanks
    Johnmcl7
    • #4
    • 8th Jun 17, 3:23 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Jun 17, 3:23 PM
    I come on this forum and people are buying cars at 5 years plus and being told they've bought an old banger and they can't expect much.
    What's going on?
    Originally posted by fred246
    I wouldn't say that's the case, what I often see is people buying an older, cheap car with high mileage who then take it to a dealer who specs out lots of work needing done at high cost and people want to take the car back. Or more simply despite buying an older, high mileage car they complain about having to do repairs which are typical for a car of that age/mileage.

    In that sort of price range, buyers are going to need to be careful with the purchase as while it's possible to get a decent car, there's many that aren't going to be and will need a lot of work done.

    John
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 8th Jun 17, 3:56 PM
    • 9,153 Posts
    • 5,848 Thanks
    bigadaj
    • #5
    • 8th Jun 17, 3:56 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Jun 17, 3:56 PM
    Are most car plants staffed by graduate engineers on the shop floor now?


    Maybe that's just the effect of qualification inflation and the majority are graduates of media engineering.
    • flashg67
    • By flashg67 8th Jun 17, 6:02 PM
    • 2,139 Posts
    • 1,409 Thanks
    flashg67
    • #6
    • 8th Jun 17, 6:02 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Jun 17, 6:02 PM
    A bit condescending? Not everyone has the ability or time to do their own maintenance.

    I know plenty of mechanics & ex-mechanics who are superb at their job and take pride in what they do. (Ok, and some that don't!)

    In my job I see plenty of new cars with eg. internal engine failures that no amount of DIY over-servicing could have prevented - if this happened to you within the warranty period, would you complain when the dealer didn't help, after admitting to voiding the warranty?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 8th Jun 17, 6:06 PM
    • 14,386 Posts
    • 12,722 Thanks
    AdrianC
    • #7
    • 8th Jun 17, 6:06 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Jun 17, 6:06 PM
    Are most car plants staffed by graduate engineers on the shop floor now?
    Originally posted by bigadaj
    No.
    That's not to say that being on an assembly line is unskilled - it isn't. But it certainly doesn't require engineering graduates. Much of the line is robotised, of course. The human jobs are mostly those that require very specific skills, where the job is basically quality control, or where access doesn't permit robots.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzCW_gAxPn0

    GM's Ellesmere Port plant produces more cars now than ever before - yet has about 1/6th of the staff of the peak.
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 8th Jun 17, 6:16 PM
    • 11,172 Posts
    • 6,210 Thanks
    Strider590
    • #8
    • 8th Jun 17, 6:16 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Jun 17, 6:16 PM
    Cars are made by graduate engineers in fantastic factories to immense standards.
    Originally posted by fred246

    Rose tinted glasses much?

    Every graduate engineer i've ever worked with was completely useless, on the other hand I worked with a guy who dropped out of uni because he felt it was a waste of time, he was an absolute engineering genius.

    If I ran my own company I wouldn't recruit engineering graduates, too many of them have no genuine interest in the subject. They just want to sit at a desk doing CAD work all day, whilst some other poor sod has to get their hands dirty bodging together their ill thought out designs.

    I present to you Colin Furze, no formal engineering qualifications at all..... Has built a hover bike, a jet powered bicycle and a motorbike powered bumper car for TopGear, amongst many other things.
    Having the last word isn't the same as being right.......

    "Never confuse education with intelligence"
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 8th Jun 17, 6:30 PM
    • 14,985 Posts
    • 8,423 Thanks
    motorguy
    • #9
    • 8th Jun 17, 6:30 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Jun 17, 6:30 PM

    I come on this forum and people are buying cars at 5 years plus and being told they've bought an old banger and they can't expect much.
    What's going on?
    Originally posted by fred246
    Really?

    Where? Any links to threads?

    I've seen threads where people are buying maybe a 9 or 10 year old cars and expecting them to be perfect but not 5 year old?

    FWIW older, more recent cars than yours can generate big bills, particularly diesels - for example DPF failure, DMF failure, injector failure, fuel pump failure, turbo failure, EGR valve failure.

    Whilst these arent terminal per se, if you've a 10 year old car with maybe £1500-£2000 then the risk of say a £1000+ bill can be unsettling.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 8th Jun 17, 6:58 PM
    • 761 Posts
    • 476 Thanks
    Tarambor
    Taking a car for a service - it's a lottery if anything is done.
    Taking a car for a repair - equals collateral damage.
    So I take a new car. I look after it. Check tyre pressures and fluid levels. Service it to the schedule.
    If a component needs replacement I disassemble the car carefully, replace the component and then re-assemble it to 'as new' condition.
    I void the warranty because I don't want any garage messing with my car.
    So early on I pay for oil, filters etc and then as time goes on brake pads, discs, cambelts, exhausts.
    Very occasionally I replace an unexpected item like a sensor or a switch.
    The car is just like new year after year. Why wouldn't it be?
    The last one got to 17 years of faultless service before it rusted.
    My current one is at 13 years and 144K miles.
    I come on this forum and people are buying cars at 5 years plus and being told they've bought an old banger and they can't expect much.
    What's going on?
    Originally posted by fred246
    Conversely, as a former mechanic who is disabled and can no longer maintain my own car that much I get mine serviced at the local main Ford dealer. I bought it at 2 years old and five years on it is now on 120,000 miles, over 80,000 of those covered by myself and has never missed a beat. It has had even fewer repairs than yours because has only had two suspension bushes wear.

    So basically your claim that your car has only done as well as it has because you've maintained it is quite frankly rubbish.
    • fred246
    • By fred246 9th Jun 17, 7:11 AM
    • 776 Posts
    • 432 Thanks
    fred246
    People on this forum are always saying things like:
    I bought a 10 year old car from a dealer and payed a high price. It has problems and the dealer won't fix them despite me taking it back multiple times.
    The 'car experts' on this forum all then jump in and shout 'idiot' it's a 10 year old banger. what do you expect?
    I wonder what a 'banger' is. Old cars used to backfire but I've never heard a car do that for ages.
    My car at 10 years old is in the prime of it's life. Pretty perfect. Starts first time, runs beautifully, never breaks down.
    The only difference from new it has bent sills were garages have jacked it incorrectly when I've taken it for new tyres. So my car is almost brand new except for the damage caused by garages.
    So what is a banger and how is it created?
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 9th Jun 17, 8:57 AM
    • 5,864 Posts
    • 4,613 Thanks
    Norman Castle
    So what is a banger and how is it created?
    Originally posted by fred246
    A banger is a term used by generally clueless people to describe any car of any age with any faults. It can also be applied to any older car regardless of condition.
    These people also have blowouts instead of punctures.

    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 9th Jun 17, 9:53 AM
    • 14,985 Posts
    • 8,423 Thanks
    motorguy
    People on this forum are always saying things like:
    I bought a 10 year old car from a dealer and payed a high price. It has problems and the dealer won't fix them despite me taking it back multiple times.
    The 'car experts' on this forum all then jump in and shout 'idiot' it's a 10 year old banger. what do you expect?
    I wonder what a 'banger' is. Old cars used to backfire but I've never heard a car do that for ages.
    My car at 10 years old is in the prime of it's life. Pretty perfect. Starts first time, runs beautifully, never breaks down.
    The only difference from new it has bent sills were garages have jacked it incorrectly when I've taken it for new tyres. So my car is almost brand new except for the damage caused by garages.
    So what is a banger and how is it created?
    Originally posted by fred246
    A right so 10 years, not 5 years? :rolleyes:

    At 10 years old its probably worth 1/10th of what it cost new.

    People need reminded of the perspective of that, relative to their expectations of their "new" car.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 9th Jun 17, 1:10 PM
    • 5,023 Posts
    • 4,492 Thanks
    Herzlos
    Exactly. No-one has said that they are bangers and worth nothing, just that if you're paying <£2k for a car at a dealership, you need to set your expectations realistically and that means you've got all the costs with owning a £1k car that's been traded in.

    If you bought carefully, you could get another 10 years out of it, but you'll probably have to spend some money. You can't expect it to be as-new, because you got something like a 90% discount on the new price.

    The people complaining usually bought a rough looking car at bottom of barrel pricing from a small dealer, and act surprised when it's not perfect.

    I've got a 7 year old car, needed £1000 worth of work done to it this year, which sucked but to be fair it was about £1500 under-priced at the time, and I got it for about 25% of new cost, so I'm still a small fortune up on buying a new one.
    • n217970
    • By n217970 9th Jun 17, 1:30 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 47 Thanks
    n217970
    If you are buying a car priced at 2k or under you have to expect the person selling it (or who traded it in) suspects it has an expensive problem. It might, it might not.

    I suspect the last person who owned my 12 year old Volvo sold it becuase the steering rack is knackered. I havn't bothered fixing it and it has passed 2 MOTs racking up another 50k miles in the process (200k in total). The clutch feels like its coming to the end of its life now - it is original, so since a new clutch and flywheel are as much as the car is worth I will probably swap it in another 6 months. Which is a shame as the D5 engine in it is still running perfectly. I expect the new owner will be on here complaining their "new" £800 car needs a clutch.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 9th Jun 17, 2:10 PM
    • 14,985 Posts
    • 8,423 Thanks
    motorguy
    People on this forum are always saying things like:
    I bought a 10 year old car from a dealer and payed a high price. It has problems and the dealer won't fix them despite me taking it back multiple times.
    The 'car experts' on this forum all then jump in and shout 'idiot' it's a 10 year old banger. what do you expect?
    I wonder what a 'banger' is. Old cars used to backfire but I've never heard a car do that for ages.
    My car at 10 years old is in the prime of it's life. Pretty perfect. Starts first time, runs beautifully, never breaks down.
    The only difference from new it has bent sills were garages have jacked it incorrectly when I've taken it for new tyres. So my car is almost brand new except for the damage caused by garages.
    So what is a banger and how is it created?
    Originally posted by fred246
    You're focusing on one word and taking it out of context.

    The average life expectancy for a car is around 12 years. If someone buys a 10 year old car from a dealer for a couple of thousand and after 2 months the exhaust rots through and they're on here demanding "their rights" then they will be reminded that its a car in its twilight years and it is prone to wear and tear.

    My last 2 cars were 13 years old - a Volvo T5 and a Porsche Boxster. The Boxster behaved impeccably in the year i owned it (needing only a set of tyres) but the T5 was a real pig of a thing, despite having only 53K miles and two owners from new (it was off the road for 6 weeks in the first 5 months of this year)

    Once a car gets to 10 years+ you're usually running a bit of a lottery with regards to big bills. Some people are happy to take that risk, some people are blissfully unaware and just drive on, some people prefer newer cars to help mitigate the risk.

    Just because it has worked for you (so far) doesnt make everyone else wrong.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • fred246
    • By fred246 9th Jun 17, 3:01 PM
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    • 432 Thanks
    fred246
    My 13 year old car with 144K miles has been valued at £500 trade in. Dealers are selling the same car for up to £4k. I would have thought some of the extra would be to sort out customer problems. People are paying £4k for a 10 year old car. When there are problems the dealers are saying 'hard luck' you get it fixed. I am not helping.' When the customer complain on the forums the motor traders are saying 'what an idiot, you've payed too much. You can't expect a 10 year old car to work." People that pay a shop £4k for something do actually expect something that works. I don't think that's too much to ask.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 9th Jun 17, 3:23 PM
    • 5,023 Posts
    • 4,492 Thanks
    Herzlos
    I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at. It's unlikely a car with a £500 trade in will sell for £4k on a dealers forecourt unless it needs a lot of work. Most likely it'd sell for £1500-2000 in a smaller dealer. So people paying £2000 at a dealer are buying a £500 trade in, and wondering why it's not in the same condition as a £20,000 car.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 9th Jun 17, 3:24 PM
    • 14,985 Posts
    • 8,423 Thanks
    motorguy

    My 13 year old car with 144K miles has been valued at £500 trade in.

    Dealers are selling the same car for up to £4k.
    Originally posted by fred246
    Really? Or is this another wild exaggeration to try to prove a feeble point?

    I'd be extremely surprised if someone buying a car off you with 144,000 miles at £500 could then retail it at £4,000.


    I would have thought some of the extra would be to sort out customer problems.
    Originally posted by fred246
    I dont accept theres a 800% markup on 10 year old cars. Sorry. It doesnt happen. You're making an inflammatory statement there for no good reason.

    And likewise, if its a genuine "fault" then people will be advised / encouraged to speak to the dealer (as is their right). IF its wear and tear then thats a different story.


    People are paying £4k for a 10 year old car. When there are problems the dealers are saying 'hard luck' you get it fixed. I am not helping.'
    Originally posted by fred246
    No. Most dealers - in fact probably 95% will sort it out if its reasonable to do so. The problem lies when people have an expectation that that they can not reasonably expect to be met and not your right to expect under the CRA 2015.


    When the customer complain on the forums the motor traders are saying 'what an idiot, you've payed too much. You can't expect a 10 year old car to work." People that pay a shop £4k for something do actually expect something that works. I don't think that's too much to ask.
    Originally posted by fred246
    Its "too much to ask" if you have an expectation that by buying something at 10 years old and - with the example you quoted - 144,000 miles and then effectively expect the dealer to maintain it for you.

    And no, we're not "motor traders", we're people who are taking our own time to offer objective advice based on our own knowledge of the CRA 2015 and experience.

    Rather than perhaps waving generalisations about willy nilly, you take the time to advise people on forums as the problems are raised? Backed up of course with the relevant section of the CRA.

    You're really just throwing about generalisations and exaggerations here to get outraged on the internet...
    Last edited by motorguy; 09-06-2017 at 3:26 PM.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 9th Jun 17, 3:26 PM
    • 14,985 Posts
    • 8,423 Thanks
    motorguy
    I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at. It's unlikely a car with a £500 trade in will sell for £4k on a dealers forecourt unless it needs a lot of work. Most likely it'd sell for £1500-2000 in a smaller dealer. So people paying £2000 at a dealer are buying a £500 trade in, and wondering why it's not in the same condition as a £20,000 car.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    I think he wants to be outraged on the internet and is trying to drum up scenarios using generalisations, mistruths and exaggerations.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
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