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  • FIRST POST
    • bery_451
    • By bery_451 7th Jun 17, 12:58 AM
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    bery_451
    Virgin Media Docsis 3rd Gen Cabling advice needed?
    • #1
    • 7th Jun 17, 12:58 AM
    Virgin Media Docsis 3rd Gen Cabling advice needed? 7th Jun 17 at 12:58 AM
    We are getting virgin media 100mb broadband installed this week.

    On Virgin Media website it states they use the latest Docsis 3.0 cabling.

    I already have existing Docsis ver 1.0 cabling in the property installed 17 years ago that is capable of 40mb max:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS#Comparison

    Now the question is when the engineer comes on the installation date then is the engineer obliged to install and rewire with the new Docsis 3 cables or take the lazy approach and use the existing cabling?

    Shall I assume it's the cabling from cabinet/box on street to property correct? Or anything else?

    I signed up for 100mb so I should be getting new Docsis 3 Cabling right and have the right to ask for money back if engineer dont use these new version 3 cables correct?

    Thanks,
Page 1
    • kwikbreaks
    • By kwikbreaks 7th Jun 17, 11:14 AM
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    kwikbreaks
    • #2
    • 7th Jun 17, 11:14 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Jun 17, 11:14 AM
    There will be no difference. So long as the existing coax is sound and not waterlogged it will work just fine. If it isn't sound then it probably won't work at all and will need replacing. The installation engineer won't do that as they use different teams for the street cabling.

    The difference in standards just refers to the number of "tv channels" that get used and details of the encoding within them. The coax will be capable of carrying the full range of channels.
    • bery_451
    • By bery_451 7th Jun 17, 6:29 PM
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    bery_451
    • #3
    • 7th Jun 17, 6:29 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Jun 17, 6:29 PM
    Not according to this wikipedia article it isnt:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS

    As can be seen in the link above that old Docsis ver 1.0/2.0 cables are limited to 40meg max speed.

    So if someone buys 100meg broadband from virgin they require the new docsis ver 3.0 cabling otherwise there will be a bottleneck of speed.

    Virgin media states on their website they use Docsis 3:

    http://www.virginmedia.com/shop/broadband/ultrafast.html

    So that means if customers buy their lowest speed 100meg broadband package then they require docsis 3 cabling as well or old cables to be upgraded/replaced otherwise virgin are violating advertising laws.
    • kwikbreaks
    • By kwikbreaks 7th Jun 17, 9:33 PM
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    kwikbreaks
    • #4
    • 7th Jun 17, 9:33 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Jun 17, 9:33 PM
    You simply don't understand what you are reading. The coax needs no upgrade.
    • Nilrem
    • By Nilrem 8th Jun 17, 12:02 AM
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    Nilrem
    • #5
    • 8th Jun 17, 12:02 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Jun 17, 12:02 AM
    We're still using the same cable that was laid 17 years ago here, before they offered cable modems.
    We're currently at 200MB.

    The cable standard in use hasn't changed in 20 years, the DOCIS standard doesn't really matter as long as the cabling was up to scratch for digital TV (some really old cabling wasn't), as the Digital TV is sent basically as data in the same way the modem works, and the digital TV feeds are a lot more than a piddly 200mb (IIRC each SD channel is about 5-10mb, and each HD one is 20-40), so it's already carrying several hundred/thousand MB/s of data across the frequencies the cabling carries.

    It's like your TV aerial cable, you may have had to have changed your Aerial itself for digital TV (usually only because the old aerial was the wrong "group" for the new frequencies), but the cabling didn't usually need replacing if it was decent quality and undamaged.

    If the installer finds your cabling can't work with the new services (unlikely if your TV and current modem are working ok), they'll arrange a new run from the street to your house.

    The modem on the other hand does and has changed repeatedly as they've increased the speeds.
    • bery_451
    • By bery_451 8th Jun 17, 12:48 AM
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    bery_451
    • #6
    • 8th Jun 17, 12:48 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Jun 17, 12:48 AM
    Ok so all this Docsis 3 cabling that Virgin Media is shouting about is just a marketing gimmick that can be ignored and the wikipedia article above that shows the cable versions and release dates in the comparison table is all BS?

    Basically you saying New cables being installed today are just the same cables installed within the last 17-20 years?

    Theres Ethernet cables cat 5, cat 6, theres hdmi cables v1.3, v1.4 and v2.0a etc. All this is just marketing gimmick as they all basically exactly the same that is digital 1's and 0s?
    • bengalknights
    • By bengalknights 8th Jun 17, 8:59 AM
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    bengalknights
    • #7
    • 8th Jun 17, 8:59 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Jun 17, 8:59 AM
    The Coax cable is good for upto 10gbps as tested by american cable networks

    Docsis is mainly related to the hardware and backend used by the companies not the actual coax cable.
    • littleboo
    • By littleboo 8th Jun 17, 9:17 AM
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    littleboo
    • #8
    • 8th Jun 17, 9:17 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Jun 17, 9:17 AM
    Ok so all this Docsis 3 cabling that Virgin Media is shouting about is just a marketing gimmick that can be ignored and the wikipedia article above that shows the cable versions and release dates in the comparison table is all BS?

    Basically you saying New cables being installed today are just the same cables installed within the last 17-20 years?

    Theres Ethernet cables cat 5, cat 6, theres hdmi cables v1.3, v1.4 and v2.0a etc. All this is just marketing gimmick as they all basically exactly the same that is digital 1's and 0s?
    Originally posted by bery_451
    The Wiki article doesn't say anything about different physical cables being required, it talks about different versions of DOCSIS, which is a standard.
    • phillw
    • By phillw 8th Jun 17, 9:54 AM
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    phillw
    • #9
    • 8th Jun 17, 9:54 AM
    • #9
    • 8th Jun 17, 9:54 AM
    Ok so all this Docsis 3 cabling that Virgin Media is shouting about is just a marketing gimmick that can be ignored and the wikipedia article above that shows the cable versions and release dates in the comparison table is all BS?
    Originally posted by bery_451
    They are comparing coax to BT's ancient twisted pair phone cable, that gets re-used when you switch to "Fibre". The cabling to the cabinets is different to the cabling from the cabinets to the premises. It's difficult to explain the technical details in a punchy headline.

    It's possible that the coax was over specified when it was installed and so it can cope with the faster speeds.

    Virgin seem to be gradually rolling out faster speeds as a marketing tool, they could have offered everyone 300mb/s years ago. But then they would have years where they weren't offering any faster speeds. They are going to roll out DOCSIS 3.1 soon, which can go to 10gb/s. Don't expect them to flip that switch for a good few years yet though.

    BT are rolling out G.Fast, which is looking like it won't be as good as docsis 3.1 either. So be prepared for more marketing that extols the virtues in laymans terms.

    If you pay for 100mb/s and you don't get a 100mb/s connection to your modem, then of course you should complain. You may not get 100mb/s throughput, as that may be beyond virgin's control.
    Last edited by phillw; 08-06-2017 at 10:11 AM.
    • kwikbreaks
    • By kwikbreaks 8th Jun 17, 11:16 AM
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    kwikbreaks
    Ok so all this Docsis 3 cabling that Virgin Media is shouting about is just a marketing gimmick that can be ignored and the wikipedia article above that shows the cable versions and release dates in the comparison table is all BS?
    Originally posted by bery_451
    The website wording was produced by some marketing wonk and was imprecise. The standard they use is DOCSIS 3 and the signals are carried by coax,

    DOCSIS3 offers higher headline speeds than VDSL and that is what they are shouting about. In fact the way the signals are carried to and from the user is irrelevant although coax does offer a higher total bandwidth than twisted pair.

    What they don't advertise, obviously, are the limitations of their service which is much more susceptible to speed degradation from heavy upstream usage than xDSL which has 1:1 upstream contention to the exchange while the fairly meagre upstream pipe on cable is shared by several hundred users. That means that if you are unlucky enough to have a couple of 24x7 torrent seeders in your street you'll be lucky to see anyywhere near that inviting headline speed. This problem is very localised and the reason you'll see many praising cable while others curse it.
    • bery_451
    • By bery_451 8th Jun 17, 1:30 PM
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    bery_451
    Ok just to summarise and clarify this thread for easier understanding that Docsis 3 cabling is used for the virgin media broadband network to the cabinets on the streets and from these cabinets to houses/properties are coaxial cables that no matter how old they are and as long they can carry digital tv signals there will be no bottleneck involved whatsoever.

    Correct?
    • bengalknights
    • By bengalknights 8th Jun 17, 2:16 PM
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    bengalknights
    Ok just to summarise and clarify this thread for easier understanding that Docsis 3 cabling is used for the virgin media broadband network to the cabinets on the streets and from these cabinets to houses/properties are coaxial cables that no matter how old they are and as long they can carry digital tv signals there will be no bottleneck involved whatsoever.

    Correct?
    Originally posted by bery_451
    No there is no such this as DOCSIS 3 Cabling

    VM Use fibre to the cabinets and coax to the premise.

    DOCSIS 3 is just a specification of transmission network and the related equipment associated with it.
    • kwikbreaks
    • By kwikbreaks 8th Jun 17, 4:57 PM
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    kwikbreaks
    Actually the fibre only goes to the big VM cabinets known as optical nodes. Most of the smaller street cabs are fed by coax too. There are amplifiers in the smaller cabinets and they feed cabinets further down the line,

    It's fascinating how what was once set up as an analogue TV distribution system was adapted to provide a broadband service. Well worth reading about if technology interests you.
    • bery_451
    • By bery_451 9th Jun 17, 2:38 PM
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    bery_451
    Update:

    Engineer came earlier however he did not complete installation as he said he couldn't see wires underneath the CATV manhole cover on my street outside my property. He said someone pulled the wires out hence he couldn't see them. Strange thing is if someone pulled the wires out then how come we can still see the existing wires on the front wall of my house going to the underground.
    • iniltous
    • By iniltous 9th Jun 17, 9:08 PM
    • 1,350 Posts
    • 475 Thanks
    iniltous
    Update:

    Engineer came earlier however he did not complete installation as he said he couldn't see wires underneath the CATV manhole cover on my street outside my property. He said someone pulled the wires out hence he couldn't see them. Strange thing is if someone pulled the wires out then how come we can still see the existing wires on the front wall of my house going to the underground.
    Originally posted by bery_451
    You say 'manhole' , I'm guessing you mean the small ( 3 inch) square plastic access point usually in the footpath outside your home
    It's quite easy to lift the lid on this access point in front of your property and see for yourself , as you say , if the cable still exists on/in your property , why wouldn't it also exist in the footpath, but in a way, you are going to get what you wanted, and that is a new cable , even though the 'old' cable would have been absolutely fine to deliver DOCSIS 3 , as that is the transmission standard rather than the specification of the coax cable
    • bery_451
    • By bery_451 10th Jun 17, 7:10 PM
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    bery_451
    Dont know whats going on that's what the engineer said. He said its has to be a 2 man job that needs to be booked.

    Does that mean digging up and ruining my front driveway?
    • kwikbreaks
    • By kwikbreaks 10th Jun 17, 7:30 PM
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    kwikbreaks
    No.

    There will be a duct between the nearest cabinet and the little access box in the street outside your house. From there to the outside box on your wall they will probably tack it along a wall or fence, they may route it through a flower bed but there is virtually no chance that they'll dig up your drive. If that amount of work is needed they'll just refuse the installation. From that box it will be taken along your house wall then through that wall to where there will be an indoor box,

    As I mentioned in my first reply the street cabling isn't done by the installation team and sfaik the blokes who do that don't do the indoor installs. The street cabling doesn't need you to be in so probably the next you'll hear is another installation appointment,
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 14th Jun 17, 2:42 PM
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    rtho782
    DOCSIS is the protocol, the "language" spoken over the cable.

    DOCSIS3 allows for much faster speeds than DOCSIS1, but it's still the same cable.

    It's like ADSL1, ADSL2, and VDSL used by BT over the same copper phone line.
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