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  • FIRST POST
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 5th Jun 17, 10:54 PM
    • 37Posts
    • 35Thanks
    LucyBea
    Part 18 Gladstones/Millennium Swansea
    • #1
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:54 PM
    Part 18 Gladstones/Millennium Swansea 5th Jun 17 at 10:54 PM
    Hi,
    I would appreciate any feedback on my part 18 request to Gladstones who are acting on behalf of Millennium in Swansea.

    I’ll post it in my second post, first the facts:

    The driver of my vehicle (2 people are insured on it but others drive it using their own insurance) was parked in a petrol garage forecourt in Swansea for about 13 minutes (or so?), unaware of the poor and hidden signage from Millennium. This was back in July 2015 when Millennium were part of BPA. The signs (found after the PCN was given) allow parking for 10 minutes without a permit, a windscreen ticket was given after 11 minutes for “no permit displayed” for £100. (In retrospect the driver thinks they saw the ticket giver grinning at them as they returned to the vehicle.) There are also very large signs at this location simply saying “no parking” (which the driver also did not see, although they should have!)

    The driver unfortunately did not appeal and POPLA was not offered. Then a “notice to owner” was sent to me as keeper of the vehicle 3 months later for £150. I wrote to them pointing out that they had not complied with POFA and had no cause against me as keeper.

    Debt recovery letters arrived & ignored, varying amounts.

    LBC from Gladstones arrived Sept 2016. I entered into email correspondence with them, first pointing out the lack of POFA, then asking for many points to be clarified to align with practice direction (basis of claim and why I am liable, what was the action was based on – contractual charge, breach of contract, trespass, how the amount of money has been calculated and increased, and I proposed ADR)

    Nothing from Gladstones until April when they sent 3 photos of my vehicle’s windscreen (no signage in the pictures because there is none visible from where the car is parked) and an email with lines like “Further evidence will be provided in our Client's witness statement should the matter proceed to court” and “The parking charge was £100 on issue. As you did not pay the charge within the 28 days allowed you are in breach of contract. Breach of contract entitles the innocent party to damages as of right in addition to the parking charge incurred. As you didn’t pay the charge the matter was passed to us and the debt has, as a result of this referral risen as my client’s staff have spent time and material facilitating the recovery of this debt. This time could have been better spent on other elements of their business. My client believes the costs associated with such time spent were incurred naturally as a direct result of your breach and as such claims them as a damage. The costs are a pre-determined and nominal contribution to the actual losses. Alternatively, my client does have a right to costs pursuant to the sign (i.e. the contract).”

    They also say “As our client is not a member of the British Parking Association an appeal to POPLA is not possible. You had the opportunity to appeal, yet didn’t in the requisite time frame. In any event, had you appealed on the same grounds as you now do, it would have been refused. And, irrespective of whether any appeal was made or not, it would not impact on the lawfulness of the parking charge.”

    I replied in less than 7 days requesting the same details as before (but not actually detailing them, referring to the correspondence below). They replied saying their LBC was compliant with practice direction. I replied politely in less than 7 days detailing the information I required.

    NEXT THING – COURT PAPERS.

    “The driver of the vehicle incurred the parking charges for breaching the terms of parking on the land at… The defendant was driving the vehicle and/or is the Keeper of the Vehicle. The claimant claims £125 for parking charges/ damages and indemnity costs if applicable….”
Page 1
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 5th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    • #2
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:56 PM
    The court papers are dated 11 May 2017, I did MCOL before the deadline. Will the court view it as unreasonable to make a part 18 request so long after? As a member of the public it does take time to look into these things – perhaps I should make mention of that?

    Also I’m not sure if I should remove my (rude-ish) reference to previous correspondence, but I think it is relevant if I am building the case that Gladstones behave unreasonably.

    The last bit in capitals, does that go with the preliminary request?
    Many thanks indeed, any suggestions would be gratefully received....


    Dear Gladstones Solicitors,

    With regard to your client, Millennium Door and Event Security LTD, PCN…. Case….

    My last four requests for extremely basic information regarding your client’s cause against me have been ignored. As court papers have been served with no response to my last request to conform to the PRACTICE DIRECTION ON PRE-ACTION CONDUCT and I still do not fully understand your client’s case against me, I maintain that you are wasting my time and that of the court.

    Thus having looked further into the rules governing pre-trial stage of court proceedings, I am making a FORMAL REQUEST for this information under PART 18 OF THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES (CPR). This is my preliminary request.

    As a body of legal professionals, I am sure you recognise I need this information, which is necessary and proportionate, to prepare my defence.

    1. What is the basis of your client’s claim?
    (a) If it is breach of contract, please provide evidence of this contract (and how I, as keeper of this vehicle, entered into this contract)
    (b) If this contract was conveyed by signs displayed at the location please provide evidence of these signs
    - wording of these signs and various text point sizes, preferably a photo
    -a map showing where they were located at the site on the date the contract was entered into, preferably a photo
    - a map showing where my vehicle was situated on this date in respect to the signs, preferably a photo

    2. Please identify the landowner for ***
    a) What is your client’s legal capacity if not the land-owner or lessee?
    b) Please provide a clear chain of authority from the landowner by way of a written authority contract, deed or lease


    TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU. SERVICE WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE BEEN EFFECTED ON THE SECOND BUSINESS DAY AFTER POSTING.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 5th Jun 17, 10:58 PM
    • 767 Posts
    • 1,668 Thanks
    Lamilad
    • #3
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:58 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:58 PM
    If this is related to your other thread. Please post it on there.
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 5th Jun 17, 11:38 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    • #4
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:38 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:38 PM
    Okay will do.
    Sorry! Having read so many other threads now I wanted to make it more concise to make it easier for other people to read, an give it a more useful title for searches, that's all!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Jun 17, 11:41 PM
    • 15,145 Posts
    • 19,060 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:41 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:41 PM
    add a link to your other thread then

    and put MILLENIUM into the drop down forum search box to find other recent ongoing and concluded cases against these sc@mmers

    they also feature on todays parking prankster blog too
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 5th Jun 17, 11:51 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    • #6
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:51 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:51 PM
    Great thank you I much prefer the sound of that. (Doh!)
    I can't post link as a new user but here are the numbers that seem to define it

    showthread.php?t=5651541
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    • 15,145 Posts
    • 19,060 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:54 PM
    live link

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5651541
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 6th Jun 17, 2:44 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    • #8
    • 6th Jun 17, 2:44 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Jun 17, 2:44 PM
    Hello,
    I have added a few bits into my part 18 request (thank you to Loadsofchildren’s thread of a similar case!). Is there anything else anyone thinks I should add? I’m trying to stay “reasonable” and only ask the things I really need to help my defence, and not asking millions of questions for the sake of it.

    I have put in a sort of explanation for this request taking me so long – it’s 3 weeks since the papers arrived – is that necessary? I have to make my defence in a week so although this information may not arrive in time, if I cover all my bases in the defence, I can use any information they give me for my skeleton/in court? (I’m sort of working to the assumption they will ignore this as they have ignored all my previous requests, but it will help build my case of Gladstones’ unreasonable behaviour.)

    Dear Gladstones Solicitors,
    With regard to your client, Millennium Door and Event Security LTD, PCN…. Case….

    My last four requests for extremely basic information regarding your client’s cause against me have been ignored. As court papers have been served with no response at all to my last request for information and for you to conform to the PRACTICE DIRECTION ON PRE-ACTION CONDUCT I still do not fully understand your client’s case against me.

    As a member of the general public with no legal training I have looked further into the rules governing pre-trial stage of court proceedings, and I am now making a FORMAL REQUEST for this information under PART 18 OF THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES (CPR). This is my preliminary request.

    As a body of legal professionals, I am sure you recognise I need this information, which is necessary and proportionate, to prepare my defence.

    1. What is the basis of your client’s claim?
    (a) If it is breach of contract, PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF THIS CONTRACT (and how I, as keeper of the vehicle, entered into this contract, especially as your client did not invoke Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012)
    (b) If this contract was conveyed by signs displayed at the location please provide evidence of these signs
    - wording of these signs, size of sign, and height at which it was displayed
    - size of the font used (if there are different fonts on the sign, please provide the font size of each part of the sign)
    (c) Please provide a map or plan showing where signs were located at the site on the date the alleged contract was entered into
    (d) Please provide a map or plan showing where my vehicle was situated on this date in respect to the signs

    2. Please identify the landowner for ***
    a) What is your client’s legal capacity if not the land-owner or lessee?
    b) Please provide a clear chain of authority from the landowner by way of a written authority contract, deed or lease

    3. Please clarify the legal status of “Millennium Parking Services”?
    a) Is it a registered company? If it is claimed that it is the “trading as” name of your client please produce evidence of this
    b) Under what basis is it claimed that your client, the Claimant (Millennium Door and Event Security LTD) is entitled to bring this claim, given that the alleged contract (of which I have no evidence) was with Millennium Parking Services?

    TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU. SERVICE WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE BEEN EFFECTED ON THE SECOND BUSINESS DAY AFTER EMAILING.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jun 17, 7:02 PM
    • 48,804 Posts
    • 62,310 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 6th Jun 17, 7:02 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Jun 17, 7:02 PM
    I have put in a sort of explanation for this request taking me so long – it’s 3 weeks since the papers arrived – is that necessary? I have to make my defence in a week so although this information may not arrive in time, if I cover all my bases in the defence, I can use any information they give me for my skeleton/in court? (I’m sort of working to the assumption they will ignore this as they have ignored all my previous requests, but it will help build my case of Gladstones’ unreasonable behaviour.)
    All sounds perfectly reasonable, as does your part 18 request wording. A good fightback so far.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 6th Jun 17, 9:48 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    Thank you Coupon Mad :-)
    I was going to email it as all my Gladstones correspondence has been via email. Is there any reason why this is a bad idea?
    Belt and braces I can post it too?
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 6th Jun 17, 10:01 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    And I think I will add:
    I believe this request to be concise, and strictly confined to matters necessary and proportionate to enable me to prepare my own case, as per the Practice Direction. Please be aware that if you fail to provide any of the evidence I have asked for at this time, yet attempt to use it at a later date, I will request the Court to prevent its use.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jun 17, 11:41 PM
    • 48,804 Posts
    • 62,310 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Great stuff.

    I would email it, saves stamps and means you can prove it was sent/received, by copying yourself in.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 7th Jun 17, 1:25 PM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,738 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Hello,
    I have added a few bits into my part 18 request (thank you to Loadsofchildren’s thread of a similar case!). Is there anything else anyone thinks I should add? I’m trying to stay “reasonable” and only ask the things I really need to help my defence, and not asking millions of questions for the sake of it.

    I have put in a sort of explanation for this request taking me so long – it’s 3 weeks since the papers arrived – is that necessary? No - you've asked for all of this before anyway! I have to make my defence in a week so although this information may not arrive in time, if I cover all my bases in the defence, I can use any information they give me for my skeleton/in court? (I’m sort of working to the assumption they will ignore this as they have ignored all my previous requests, but it will help build my case of Gladstones’ unreasonable behaviour.)

    Dear Gladstones Solicitors,
    With regard to your client, Millennium Door and Event Security LTD, PCN…. Case….

    My last four requests for extremely basic information regarding your client’s cause against me dated xxxxxx have been ignored. You have now served As court proceedings papers have been served with no response at all to my last requests for information and for you to conform to the PRACTICE DIRECTION ON PRE-ACTION CONDUCT (in particular paragraphs 6(a) and (c)) . Regrettably, your client's conduct means that I still do not fully understand your client’s case against me.

    As a member of the general public with no legal training I have looked further into the rules governing pre-trial stage of court proceedings, and I am now making a FORMAL REQUEST for this information under PART 18 OF THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES (CPR). This is my preliminary request.

    As a body of legal professionals, I am sure you recognise I need this information, which is necessary and proportionate, to understand the claim against me and to prepare my defence.

    1. What is the basis of your client’s claim?
    (a) If it is breach of contract, PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF THIS CONTRACT (and how I, as keeper of the vehicle, entered into this contract, especially as your client did not invoke Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012) this information should already have been produced, pursuant to the requirements set out in paragraphs 7.2/3 of Practice Direction 16.
    (b) If this contract was conveyed by signs displayed at the location please provide evidence of these signs
    - wording of these signs, size of sign, and height at which it was displayed
    - size of the font used (if there are different fonts on the sign, please provide the font size of each part of the sign)
    (c) Please provide a map or plan showing where signs were located at the site on the date the alleged contract was entered into
    (d) Please provide a map or plan showing where my vehicle was situated on this date in respect to the signs
    Some of this information should already have been produced pursuant to paragraphs 7.2/3 of Practice Direction 16.

    2. Please identify the landowner for ***
    a) What is your client’s legal capacity if not the land-owner or lessee?
    b) Please provide a clear chain of authority from the landowner by way of a written authority contract, deed or lease

    3. Please clarify the legal status of “Millennium Parking Services”?
    a) Is it a registered company? If it is claimed that it is the “trading as” name of your client please produce evidence of this
    b) Under what basis is it claimed that your client, the Claimant (Millennium Door and Event Security LTD) is entitled to bring this claim, given that the alleged contract (of which I have no evidence) was with Millennium Parking Services?


    4. Please provide a copy of the Notice to Driver dated xxxx [assuming you don't already have this?]

    TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU. SERVICE WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE BEEN EFFECTED ON THE SECOND BUSINESS DAY AFTER EMAILING.


    You have previously indicated that further information about your client's claim will be provided only at the witness statement stage of proceedings. With respect, you must know that this prevents me from filing a proper defence to the claim. A claim must be set out in full in the Particulars of Claim (a clear requirement of Rule 16.2(1)(a), 16.4(1)(a)).


    Your prior refusal to provide proper information about the claim, and core documents (a breach of the Pre-Action Practice Direction, as set out above), your conduct in issuing a claim which is not properly particularised (a breach of Rule 16, as set out above), and any continued refusal to answer these questions, particularly now that a formal Part 18 request has been made, will be drawn to the court's attention on the question of costs.
    Originally posted by LucyBea
    Suggested amendments set out above.
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 7th Jun 17, 11:19 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    Thank you so much LoadsofChildren!
    Those changes are very helpful.

    I do have the Notice to Driver, and the Notice to "Owner" (as outside POFA time frame).

    I'm also quite intrigued regarding the distinction between MPS and Millennium Door and Event you go into on your thread, but I'm not sure I have the legal expertise to argue it ...

    Thank you again!
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 8th Jun 17, 11:03 AM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,738 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    The distinction is something that a higher court would be interested in, and it does have teeth (but I think it's an argument that could go either way). I'm not sure the small claims court is going to want to really consider the argument though. So I agree with you. But I think it's worth putting in. If you get a good judge who is a bit fed up with them they might run with it.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 8th Jun 17, 12:34 PM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,738 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Also an argument like this may worry Millennium, it would establish a very damaging precedent for them
    Wait til you see their parking contract - if it's like their others it will say that they can only ticket cars that are reported to it as unauthorised by the landowner...... so you ask for evidence that a report was made, otherwise you say they were not authorised by the contract to ticket your car at all. Another point they won't want litigated in case they lose it.
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 8th Jun 17, 9:18 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    Will they provide that contract at some point? If they do not, can a mean judge still side with them? Then, as this possible point of defence is not included in my defence (as it is due next week) will I be allowed to use it in court?
    I suppose I can include something like "as no landowner contract has been provided the defendant is unable to assess the contractual right of the claimant to pursue these proceedings. The defendant reserves the right address this in Court as she has reason to believe the Claimant's parking contract did not authorise them to issue a PCN in the first place..."
    (as the PCN was issued after one minute surely they really have no chance of saying the landowner had made a report!)

    This is all such a ridiculous charade

    The petrol station have been less than helpful, just keep telling me that if I have a problem I should appeal to millennium who are "an approved BPA operator" (I have informed them they are certainly not!) I made it clear that Millennium are NOT a reputable parking company and even sent them the stuff about Forge Fach... same response. I'm really mad because we all know Millennium and Sadstones are bottom feeders, but the big brand petrol station should care more about their customers - I've spent 1000s there over the years.

    Thank you again for all the help, I will post my defence when done...
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jun 17, 11:17 PM
    • 48,804 Posts
    • 62,310 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Will they provide that contract at some point?
    Yes, with their evidence.

    I suppose I can include something like "as no landowner contract has been provided the defendant is unable to assess the contractual right of the claimant to pursue these proceedings. The defendant reserves the right address this in Court as she has reason to believe the Claimant's parking contract did not authorise them to issue a PCN in the first place..."
    (as the PCN was issued after one minute surely they really have no chance of saying the landowner had made a report!)
    Yes indeedy!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 9th Jun 17, 2:47 PM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,738 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Will they provide that contract at some point? yes. With their WS. Although it should of course have been produced pre-proceedings.
    I suppose I can include something like "as no landowner contract has been provided the defendant is unable to assess the contractual right of the claimant to pursue these proceedings. The defendant reserves the right address this in Court as she has reason to believe the Claimant's parking contract did not authorise them to issue a PCN in the first place..." exactly. Put this in.
    (as the PCN was issued after one minute surely they really have no chance of saying the landowner had made a report!)Driver was only there 1 minute??????
    Originally posted by LucyBea
    If your "offence" was parking for 1 minute you should include grace periods in the defence. Driver has to be given time to decide whether or not to accept the contract being offered.
    Also the signs at that location are quite high and small.
    Do they have planning/advertising consent? Check on Seansea's planning portal and if not complain. They are a criminal offence (look at the Skeleton on my thread for the Welsh law).
    • LucyBea
    • By LucyBea 9th Jun 17, 10:33 PM
    • 37 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    LucyBea
    Thank you so much for the tip LoadsofChildren, I will check that out.

    I just reviewed the photos the driver took the day of the PCN in 2015. The sign was tiny and quite literally obscured by a lovely overgrown buddleia! No one would ever see it! The driver went right up and took a photo from right in front of the sign and even then I can only read the top 2 lines. I'm not sure if they have changed their signs, I'll have to go back and check, but the only bit I can read says
    "Permit holders and short stay only. If you contravene the above rule or the parking rules set out then you agree to pay a parking charge notice of £100"
    I guess "short stay" must be defined (as 10 mins) in the tiny print, but that's something else I'm throwing into the defence.

    There is also a different "no parking" sign which IS legible from the car. I was planning on pointing to this as being forbidding and hence no contract, but these are not Millennium signs. Does anyone have any advice about this? It is still there 2 years later...
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