Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • gregston
    • By gregston 5th Jun 17, 10:20 AM
    • 2Posts
    • 1Thanks
    gregston
    Guarantor - Joint and Several tenancy
    • #1
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:20 AM
    Guarantor - Joint and Several tenancy 5th Jun 17 at 10:20 AM
    Our son is due to start his final year at Brighton this September. He has paid a substantial deposit for a shared house with six other people (some of whom he doesn't actually know). Now we have had a form to sign as guarantors, but instead of just covering his share it covers "£3250pcm shared between seven". I believe the other guarantors have received the same. Is this normal? We can't sign up to something we can't afford but our son had trouble finding this house and would be gutted if he has to lose it. Any suggestions?
Page 1
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 5th Jun 17, 10:26 AM
    • 10,385 Posts
    • 14,223 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    • #2
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:26 AM
    • #2
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:26 AM
    Yes that is quite normal. As his guarantor you are guaranteeing your son's liability. As a joint tenant your son will have joint and several liability for the whole rent there's no such thing legally speaking as "his share," of the rent.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • Money maker
    • By Money maker 5th Jun 17, 10:27 AM
    • 4,762 Posts
    • 10,854 Thanks
    Money maker
    • #3
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:27 AM
    • #3
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:27 AM
    Is it possible to get separate tenancies for each student? We managed this for DS2 but it was only a household of 3.
    Please do not quote spam as this enables it to 'live on' once the spam post is removed.

    If you quote me, don't forget the capital 'M'

    Declutterers of the world - unite!
    • mrginge
    • By mrginge 5th Jun 17, 10:29 AM
    • 3,996 Posts
    • 7,021 Thanks
    mrginge
    • #4
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:29 AM
    • #4
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:29 AM
    You may wish to investigate the legal requirements for a valid guarantor agreement. My suspicion is that what you have described does not support them.

    Regardless of the possible invalidity of the guarantor agreement though, you say that you cannot sign something that you cannot afford, however your son has done exactly that and is now on the hook for £3250 a month.
    • mrginge
    • By mrginge 5th Jun 17, 10:34 AM
    • 3,996 Posts
    • 7,021 Thanks
    mrginge
    • #5
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:34 AM
    • #5
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:34 AM
    Yes that is quite normal. As his guarantor you are guaranteeing your son's liability. As a joint tenant your son will have joint and several liability for the whole rent there's no such thing legally speaking as "his share," of the rent.
    Originally posted by Pixie5740
    Yes, very difficult to avoid j&s as a student, which is fair enough tbh.
    But there's no way on gods earth I would be guaranteeing SEVEN people, some of whom were unknown.
    • david1951
    • By david1951 5th Jun 17, 10:39 AM
    • 326 Posts
    • 374 Thanks
    david1951
    • #6
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:39 AM
    • #6
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:39 AM
    Unfortunately you will probably have to sign it. Legally speaking, your son doesn't have a "share"; he is jointly and severally liable himself for £3250/month. You are guaranteeing this liability.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Jun 17, 11:01 AM
    • 13,955 Posts
    • 13,464 Thanks
    Guest101
    • #7
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:01 AM
    • #7
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:01 AM
    Our son is due to start his final year at Brighton this September. He has paid a substantial deposit for a shared house with six other people (some of whom he doesn't actually know). Now we have had a form to sign as guarantors, but instead of just covering his share it covers "£3250pcm shared between seven". I believe the other guarantors have received the same. Is this normal? We can't sign up to something we can't afford but our son had trouble finding this house and would be gutted if he has to lose it. Any suggestions?
    Originally posted by gregston


    Yes it's normal and no I wouldn't agree to it. It's madness to sign up to a joint tenancy with people he doesn't know
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 5th Jun 17, 11:06 AM
    • 4,616 Posts
    • 4,265 Thanks
    eddddy
    • #8
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:06 AM
    • #8
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:06 AM
    Some people have mentioned that letting agents have agreed to modify the guarantors terms to say something like "my liability is limited to £420 a month, payable if my son fails to pay his monthly £420 share of the rent".

    If the other 6 guarantors sign up for the full £3250 liability, the agent might let you 'get away' with that. Or they might not.

    But that doesn't limit your son's liability for the full £3250 per month - in this case, apparently guaranteeing the rent of people he doesn't know.
    Last edited by eddddy; 05-06-2017 at 11:09 AM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 5th Jun 17, 11:09 AM
    • 39,616 Posts
    • 45,110 Thanks
    G_M
    • #9
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:09 AM
    • #9
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:09 AM
    Yes it's normal and no I wouldn't agree to it. It's madness to sign up to a joint tenancy with people he doesn't know
    Originally posted by Guest101
    one of them drops out of uni and vanishes. Your son is liable (along with the others) for that person's rent. He can't afford it. You become liable.

    one of them gets out of his head on drink/drugs and smashes the place up. Your son becomes liable for the damage costs (as do the others). He can't afford it. You become liable.

    etc

    On the possible plus side:

    * have you seen the full tenancy agreement? If not, and you sign the guarantee agreement, it may not stand up in court as you were not fully informed of what you were guaranteeing

    * does the guarantee agreement say it is a Deed? If not, and you sign the guarantee agreement, it may not stand up in court as it is not a contract. It has to be a Deed.

    * is there a requirement for a witness to sign to confirm your own signature? If not, and you sign the guarantee agreement, it may not stand up in court as a Deed requires a witness
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 5th Jun 17, 11:57 AM
    • 4,616 Posts
    • 4,265 Thanks
    eddddy
    On the possible plus side:

    * have you seen the full tenancy agreement? If not, and you sign the guarantee agreement, it may not stand up in court as you were not fully informed of what you were guaranteeing

    <snip>
    Originally posted by G_M
    But you need to be careful with this kind of stuff.

    If you say to the court
    "They didn't send me the AST, so I genuinely did not understand what I was guaranteeing"
    you might have a good case.

    But if you say
    "They didn't send me an AST, and I purposely didn't ask for one, in the hope of making the deed unenforceable"
    you would have a "less good" case

    And the court might ask you why you didn't ask to see the AST etc. So it could get messy.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 5th Jun 17, 12:02 PM
    • 39,616 Posts
    • 45,110 Thanks
    G_M
    But you need to be careful with this kind of stuff.

    If you say to the court
    "They didn't send me the AST, so I genuinely did not understand what I was guaranteeing"
    you might have a good case.

    But if you say
    "They didn't send me an AST, and I purposely didn't ask for one, in the hope of making the deed unenforceable"
    you would have a "less good" case

    And the court might ask you why you didn't ask to see the AST etc. So it could get messy.
    Originally posted by eddddy
    Indeed. Which is why I carefully said:
    it may not stand up in court
    Once disputes get to court all sorts of factors, including simply the attitude of the judge, can influence the outcome......
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 5th Jun 17, 12:30 PM
    • 7,761 Posts
    • 4,596 Thanks
    teddysmum
    I know someone who fell foul of 'joint and several' over a business. This was with someone he knew, who turned out to be greedy , wasteful and selfish, so as his assets were protected, the other partner ended up with all the debts.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Jun 17, 12:36 PM
    • 13,955 Posts
    • 13,464 Thanks
    Guest101
    I know someone who fell foul of 'joint and several' over a business. This was with someone he knew, who turned out to be greedy , wasteful and selfish, so as his assets were protected, the other partner ended up with all the debts.
    Originally posted by teddysmum
    There may have been the option of a private pursuit for those debts.


    In this case Students 1-7 all agree to rent together, each owing the full rent. (how they split is up to them). If student 1 doesn't pay, they could be sued by 2-7 to recover what they have paid out.


    getting paid is another matter, but the debt doesn't necessarily disappear.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 5th Jun 17, 12:50 PM
    • 7,761 Posts
    • 4,596 Thanks
    teddysmum
    There may have been the option of a private pursuit for those debts
    Originally posted by Guest101

    No chance. The other party was a member of a well known secret society (turns out the company solicitor was, too) and had everything tied up so his wealthy parent 'owned' everything and he had nothing to 'go after'.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Jun 17, 1:41 PM
    • 13,955 Posts
    • 13,464 Thanks
    Guest101
    No chance. The other party was a member of a well known secret society (turns out the company solicitor was, too) and had everything tied up so his wealthy parent 'owned' everything and he had nothing to 'go after'.
    Originally posted by teddysmum
    still worth having a ccj registered against them, as a warning to others
    • gregston
    • By gregston 10th Jun 17, 3:46 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    gregston
    Food for thought
    Many thanks for all the replies.
    gregston
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

126Posts Today

2,524Users online

Martin's Twitter