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  • FIRST POST
    • PossiblyOverworked
    • By PossiblyOverworked 4th Jun 17, 4:41 PM
    • 31Posts
    • 4Thanks
    PossiblyOverworked
    working time regs & learning (training) in my own time with work relevant stuff
    • #1
    • 4th Jun 17, 4:41 PM
    working time regs & learning (training) in my own time with work relevant stuff 4th Jun 17 at 4:41 PM
    I work full time (40 hrs over 5 days) in a "career" type job but the situation at my workplace is uncertain - will I be laid off due to downsizing (has happened a few times already at this company) etc. I also have to "dial in" out of hours sometimes to help resolve problems etc.

    My HR have contacted me with concerns about the Working time Regs because I am spending a lot of time studying (in my own time at home) for professional certifications and knowledge that are beneficial to me for a future move to another company if I am laid off for example, but also beneficial to the company. I have initiated the study, they didn't ask me to (boss doesn't think qualifications are worth taking). It became known to them "indirectly'.

    HR says this brings me over the 48hrs a week (which I can opt out of) but more importantly brings me out of the 11 hrs rest period between shifts (as I work on it at home after work e.g work 9-6 and then work on a course 9-11pm and then 11pm to 9am isn't 11 hours) and 24/48 hr off per week as I work on it on a Sat or Sun when I get a free day so I don't get the "day off" because it's training relevant to the employer. So I have to stop doing it or they have to take action to reduce my workload (less pay) in the 9-6!

    (added- they are referring to "training for the benefit of the employer" being seen as working hours according to the WTR and thats why it is being raised as it is potentially to the benefit of this employer (they don't know I am loking to leave. )

    Is this legitimately "working time" and what can I do?
    Last edited by PossiblyOverworked; 04-06-2017 at 6:24 PM.
Page 2
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 5th Jun 17, 6:04 PM
    • 12,547 Posts
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    Personally - I agree with everyone else that its not their business.

    I guess its more a "matter of form" (ie protect back stuff) thing for them to mention it now.

    Well - their back will be perfectly well protected if they literally don't know you are doing it. That being because you've told them what they wish to hear - ie that you've given it up (eg because you found you don't have enough time for it any longer). I've had to do much the same in a couple of different issues prior to retirement - and that was the end of them poking their nose in.

    Then you carry on with it as per usual - but quietly this time...
    ******************
    • PossiblyOverworked
    • By PossiblyOverworked 7th Jun 17, 8:02 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    PossiblyOverworked
    What's your union said?
    Originally posted by nicechap
    I'm not in a union.
    • PossiblyOverworked
    • By PossiblyOverworked 7th Jun 17, 8:08 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    PossiblyOverworked
    You should also raise the "on call" situation,

    If they want to strictly follow the rules on rest periods.

    You should not have to come into work for 11hrs after a call where you needed to work.

    To comply with the weekly rest periods they need to limit the call on consecutive weekends.

    How are they on the 20 min daily breaks for over 6 hrs.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    "On call" isn't an official arrangement (as in contractual) but there is an "on call" list which has been circulated with senior management, with a list of "type of issue" and "the person to call" (and their backup) about that particular issue. I am the "backup" on call person but do semi-frequently get calls as the primary person isn't available or doesn't know how to deal with that particular problem etc.

    In this situation we are able to claim the time back, as in if I got called at midnight on a Sunday night (I work M-F approx. office hours) and it took an hour to deal with, I could leave at 5pm instead of 6pm on another day.

    The 20 min daily breaks are fine as there is a lunch hour which I can take although sometimes end up up voluntarily working through (but I'm not made to do so).
    Last edited by PossiblyOverworked; 07-06-2017 at 8:29 PM.
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 7th Jun 17, 8:22 PM
    • 686 Posts
    • 1,721 Thanks
    nicechap
    I'm not in a union.
    Originally posted by PossiblyOverworked

    Perhaps pay for some legal advice then.
    Quote was right and saw into the future.
    • PossiblyOverworked
    • By PossiblyOverworked 7th Jun 17, 8:26 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    PossiblyOverworked
    Personally - I agree with everyone else that its not their business.

    I guess its more a "matter of form" (ie protect back stuff) thing for them to mention it now.

    Well - their back will be perfectly well protected if they literally don't know you are doing it. That being because you've told them what they wish to hear - ie that you've given it up (eg because you found you don't have enough time for it any longer). I've had to do much the same in a couple of different issues prior to retirement - and that was the end of them poking their nose in.

    Then you carry on with it as per usual - but quietly this time...
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    Don't ask, don't tell - the best policy! My worry with that though is that I can't mention it again, so can't use that training to my advantage (like if a "Junior Teapot Spout Designer" position opens up) as it wouldn't be on record that I have that training and knowledge.
    • asajj
    • By asajj 7th Jun 17, 9:13 PM
    • 4,059 Posts
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    asajj
    You can always show the training certificate or something similar. Alternatively, you can demonstrate that you have some knowledge if it is needed.
    £2015 in 2015 / £2015

    No buying unnecessary stuff.
    Clearing out by selling on Ebay, donating to charity etc.
    • PossiblyOverworked
    • By PossiblyOverworked 7th Jun 17, 9:29 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    PossiblyOverworked
    I think they're getting hung up on the "training for the benefit of the employer" or "job-related training" part of the wording of the working time regs, as it doesn't say (for instance) "training your employer has asked you to do" or "training that's a necessary part of the job" (there are some professions where you have to do a certain amount of professional development each year to keep some kind of 'chartered' status, but this isn't one of them).
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 7th Jun 17, 9:42 PM
    • 28,784 Posts
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    getmore4less
    "On call" isn't an official arrangement (as in contractual) but there is an "on call" list which has been circulated with senior management, with a list of "type of issue" and "the person to call" (and their backup) about that particular issue. I am the "backup" on call person but do semi-frequently get calls as the primary person isn't available or doesn't know how to deal with that particular problem etc.

    In this situation we are able to claim the time back, as in if I got called at midnight on a Sunday night (I work M-F approx. office hours) and it took an hour to deal with, I could leave at 5pm instead of 6pm on another day.

    The 20 min daily breaks are fine as there is a lunch hour which I can take although sometimes end up up voluntarily working through (but I'm not made to do so).
    Originally posted by PossiblyOverworked
    The opportunity I was hinting at.

    you make it official as HR want to poke their nose into your personal time they need to be made aware of the unofficial work that you are doing and how your study (often) gets interrupted by work calls you could add "will the same break rules apply to those?"

    if HR already know why is that not covered by these rules.

    Have you got any management that are sensible, have the necessary influence and would recognise HR need a gentle reminder who they work for and to drop this nonsense.

    you know the place you work so need to develop a strategy to resolve this

    Getting a champion more senior may be a solution.

    The impact of dropping the on call into the mix is something you need to judge.

    ...............
    The key point is that the hours you voluntary do to educate yourself are not relevant hours for any Working time regulation legislation.
    If they persist ask them to highlight the specific bit of legislation they are relying on to include them in your working hours.


    are you sure this is not a misunderstanding and they think because it is on you appraisal it is work driven?




    .
    • PossiblyOverworked
    • By PossiblyOverworked 8th Jun 17, 10:40 PM
    • 31 Posts
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    PossiblyOverworked
    HR already know about "on call" hours in some sense, but have treated it unofficially so far, as in they wave through requests for time off in lieu or overtime and do the appropriate paperwork to allow that, but without regard to the "big picture" of mandated break periods (24 hrs within a week and so on) etc.

    I'm pretty sure it's not a misunderstanding in as much as they know it isn't requested by the company or my line manager, that I am doing it voluntarily off my own back (bat?) But still it is highly relevant to the company's business aims and so on. (ETA: I also made it very clear on my appraisal that I have "voluntarily" and "in my own time" taken on these learning commitments, and my immediate boss seemingly endorsed it with her comments that "this shows a dedication to................" etc.)
    Last edited by PossiblyOverworked; 08-06-2017 at 10:42 PM.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 9th Jun 17, 6:40 AM
    • 15,503 Posts
    • 38,863 Thanks
    FBaby
    This thread made my day (so far). I wonder what my employer should make of my 'work' outside of paid time, that is the 'work' that most family members do, baby-sitter, cleaner, cook, teacher, carer, gardener, mechanism, handyman....

    Take out 7 hours for sleep and the time I'm here (then again, isn't that training with all the learning!) and we are all way above the Working Time Regulations!

    Not making fun of your thread OP, but it sounds like your HR advisor needs to go back to training or a holiday!
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 9th Jun 17, 2:07 PM
    • 525 Posts
    • 335 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    are you sure this is not a misunderstanding and they think because it is on you appraisal it is work driven?

    .
    Originally posted by getmore4less

    This must surely be the case. Either that or these HR people are even dafter than usual!
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