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  • FIRST POST
    • ForumUserOne
    • By ForumUserOne 3rd Jun 17, 5:48 PM
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    ForumUserOne
    PCN in residential car park from Conkai Security
    • #1
    • 3rd Jun 17, 5:48 PM
    PCN in residential car park from Conkai Security 3rd Jun 17 at 5:48 PM
    Hi, I have read the newbies post but am still a little confused...

    I live in a block of flats, each flat has an assigned parking space and we have been given parking permits. I was parked in my assigned parking space but a PCN was placed on the window of my car. My permit was on display but had slipped down my dashboard to the lower part of the windshield, however, the name of my block was very clearly visible.

    I called the management company and was told to appeal the PCN. I did this through their online system, which includes some photos they took of my car, parking signage, and PCN. Here is my appeal:
    Notice Serial Number: [xxxx]
    Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM): [xxxx]
    As registered keeper of the vehicle, I am appealing this charge because the valid parking permit for [name of flat] was clearly displayed per photographs taken by the attendant. Additionally, I am a resident at live at [name of flat] and was correctly parked in my designated parking space. I have attached the following evidence:
    • Permit.jpg - a close up picture of my parking permit, which is clearly valid
    • ParkingMap.jpg - a photo of the parking map at my building showing the location of my assigned parking space, which as per the attendants pictures I was clearly parked in
    • Address.jpg - proof that my vehicle is registered at the address of the assigned [name of flat]parking space: [address]

    I look forward to receive confirmation of a successful appeal within 28 days.

    Yours faithfully,
    Unsurprisingly, this was rejected. Along with the rejection letter I also got an NTD, which I now realise I should have waited for before appealing but was following the advice of the management company. The rejection letter states “While we appreciate that you have provided us with a permit, we do not accept that this was clearly displayed as per the Terms and Conditions and we would ask you to review our photographic evidence available on [myparkingcharge website]. The Term and Conditions displayed on site state “Display a valid permit (with all details clearly visible)”. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure the permit is clearly displayed before leaving their vehicle. As your vehicle was observed not clearly displaying a permit, the Notice was issued correctly.”

    I am now confused about my next steps. Both the rejection letter and NTD say I can appeal to IAS (the rejection letters states I am the driver, which I have not admitted to). I have until Tuesday 6 June to do this. I have taken this up with the management company again and they have said to complain to the company. Should I do this or use the IAS?

    I have read around on here and it doesn’t look like Conkai Security have taken anyone to court but their sister companies have (Vehicle Control Services and Excel Parking Services). It appears the IAS is a waste of time but I think I have a good case as I was parked correctly in my assigned space. I have also checked my tenancy agreement and it states “The Property known as [address] [Including parking]”.

    Another user posted an image of the exact same signage used at my flat on dropbox .com/ sc/5keof1mwlynyssk/ZuN57Gp45L
    This thread seemed to indicate that I have a case as my flat contract states including parking but it refers to POPLA and is a few years old. Although the signage states BPA, my understanding is that Conkai are now members of IPC and so only use IAS.

    Any advice on next steps would be very much appreciated.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Jun 17, 6:05 PM
    • 16,119 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 3rd Jun 17, 6:05 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Jun 17, 6:05 PM
    not a lot you can do except argue your case in front of a judge in court , based on prmacy of contract in your lease, so a bit like the JOPSON case

    the IPC and IAS is a waste of space

    the PPC has 6 years to try a court case, at which point you would use all the evidence you have gathered and also various legal arguments

    there are hundreds of similar residential threads on here so study those whilst awaiting an MCOL from Northampton

    your lease trumps any parking control , plus your MA should have had the pcn cancelled so its also time to make life hell for them

    the idea of having parking control is to keep out unwanted vehicles, not to harass a resident

    if conkai and these other PPC,s moved into the 21st century they would have a digital list ov VRM details and could and should refer to it , not some outdated paper permit method that Noah through over the side of the ark many moons ago
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Jun 17, 6:57 PM
    • 15,005 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 3rd Jun 17, 6:57 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Jun 17, 6:57 PM
    Make some enquiries of other residents. Are they falling foul of this? Garner support for a combined protest to the MA. Set up a 'closed' Facebook page 'The Residents of (your estate's address)', where updates can quickly be disseminated and actions discussed/announced.

    You need to get rid of the PPC if you're (all) going to have some peace, because once they've eliminated the fly-parkers, which won't take them long, all they've got left to gorge themselves on are the residents - as you have now found to your cost.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 3rd Jun 17, 8:13 PM
    • 40,416 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 3rd Jun 17, 8:13 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Jun 17, 8:13 PM
    Unfortunately you revealed the driver's identity in your appeal. (You said who was parked in your space.) Fortunately this is an "own space" issue so it is not a fatal mistake.

    What happened when you complained to the landowner and the MA?

    As already advised, you should now stir up a stink, and wait for a court claim against you which you will win.

    What precisely does your lease/AST say about parking? This will trump anything the parking scammers say or do. If there is nothing about parking, or permits, or parking charges in your lease/AST then there is no requirement for residents to show a permit at all. If that is the case, tell the scammers that you now withdraw any implied right of access to your demised space and any further tickets issued will be considered as trespass. Copy the MA in as well.

    The IAS is a waste of space so don't bother with them.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 03-06-2017 at 8:15 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jun 17, 8:43 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 3rd Jun 17, 8:43 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Jun 17, 8:43 PM
    No-one is telling you to pay this, BTW, when we say there is no point in any further appeal!

    I have taken this up with the management company again and they have said to complain to the company. Should I do this or use the IAS?
    Neither.

    Read the threads by hairray and Daniel San and infernouk (search the members list, find their names, click on their names to read their threads) for examples of how to fight this robustly. Why are you even displaying a permit, why should you...? This third party firm is there to harass and fleece residents, not for the purpose the MA thinks.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ForumUserOne
    • By ForumUserOne 5th Jun 17, 10:57 PM
    • 7 Posts
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    ForumUserOne
    • #6
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:57 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Jun 17, 10:57 PM
    Thank you all for the advice! The only part of my agreement that refers to a parking space is the first page where the property is listed as "The Property known as [address] [Including parking] and as described in Schedules 1-5". I can't see anything else that would allude to a parking space. There is a reference to a 'Superior Lease' which seems to be related to the landlord but I don't have a copy of that - I will ask my letting agent though.

    The lease also mentions Passing on Notices, I wonder if the PCN counts as a as it was placed in my parking space which is part of my lease:
    Pass on Notices
    The Tenant will promptly give to the Landlord or his Agent a copy of any notice order or notice of any legal proceedings relating to the Property received by the Tenant from any superior Landlord government department local or public authority or other party.
    Incidentally, I read that it is worth appealing to the IAS as it may help show that you have tried to resolve the dispute reasonably if it gets to court. However, my reference and vehicle number are not recognised on the IAS website - took a screen grab of this.

    My intention is to write to the PPC once I have reviewed to the 'superior lease' to see if it refers to a parking space.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jun 17, 11:06 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:06 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Jun 17, 11:06 PM
    I read that it is worth appealing to the IAS
    where did you read that rubbish? It is NOT.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 6th Jun 17, 1:12 AM
    • 40,416 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 6th Jun 17, 1:12 AM
    • #8
    • 6th Jun 17, 1:12 AM
    Thank you all for the advice! The only part of my agreement that refers to a parking space is the first page where the property is listed as "The Property known as [address] [Including parking] and as described in Schedules 1-5". I can't see anything else that would allude to a parking space. There is a reference to a 'Superior Lease' which seems to be related to the landlord but I don't have a copy of that - I will ask my letting agent though.

    The lease also mentions Passing on Notices, I wonder if the PCN counts as a as it was placed in my parking space which is part of my lease:
    Pass on Notices
    The Tenant will promptly give to the Landlord or his Agent a copy of any notice order or notice of any legal proceedings relating to the Property received by the Tenant from any superior Landlord government department local or public authority or other party.
    Incidentally, I read that it is worth appealing to the IAS as it may help show that you have tried to resolve the dispute reasonably if it gets to court. However, my reference and vehicle number are not recognised on the IAS website - took a screen grab of this.

    My intention is to write to the PPC once I have reviewed to the 'superior lease' to see if it refers to a parking space.
    Originally posted by ForumUserOne
    None of that is relevant. The keeper has not received any legal proceedings, let alone anything to do with the property. It certainly is NOT from a government department or public authority either.

    Lease trumps third party (parking scammers) Ts and Cs. According to your lease there is nothing about a permit scheme or paying parking charges for not following the scammers rules. This begs the question, why are you showing a permit in the first place if it is not a requirement of your lease/AST?
    If it were me I would tell the MA and parking scammers that you are withdrawing any and all implied right of access to your demised space, and any further tickets left on the keeper's car will be considered trespass. I would also send the permit back saying you are not required to join their scheme and will not display a permit as is your right in accordance with your lease/AST.

    All you can do now is wait to see if you get a LBC. If you do then come back here for further advice. If that happens you should also consider a counter claim for a breach of the DPA. One resident got £900 when he did just that.
    Meanwhile, keep complaining to the landowner and MA, and talk to other residents. Point them here if they have suffered the same issue. Gang up on the MA if enough people have bee affected.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 06-06-2017 at 1:17 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 6th Jun 17, 6:59 AM
    • 7,191 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #9
    • 6th Jun 17, 6:59 AM
    • #9
    • 6th Jun 17, 6:59 AM
    AFAICS from the details you have given us of your lease, the parking space is part of your demised property, and no-one can charge you for not displaying a permit. Read this

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**

    You could, if you were inclined, probably make them pay not only for abusing your DPA rights, but also for trespassing on your land, and interfering with your quiet enjoyment of your property. The function of private parking companies is to manage parking for occupants, not to harass them.
    Last edited by The Deep; 06-06-2017 at 7:09 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • ForumUserOne
    • By ForumUserOne 17th Jun 17, 8:55 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ForumUserOne
    Thanks for the extra info. I've held off doing anything until my letting agent sent me a copy of the 'superior lease' - what they have provided me with is a "house rules" document from the property management company, which I haven't seen before. This just lists rules on things like rubbish, noise restrictions, communal spaces, etc. On parking it says:

    • PARKING
    o Not to park any vehicle other than a permitted vehicle in the parking space allocated.
    o Not to at any time obstruct access for emergency vehicles onto the site.
    What's your interpretation of this?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 17th Jun 17, 9:06 PM
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    pappa golf
    define "Not to park any vehicle other than a permitted vehicle in the parking space allocated. "

    have the management Co got your VRN on file

    there will be a section that states n commercial vehicles , no scrap cars . etc etc , does your vehicle fall into this class?
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 17th Jun 17, 9:13 PM
    • 6,183 Posts
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    beamerguy
    • PARKING
    o Not to park any vehicle other than a permitted vehicle in the parking space allocated.
    o Not to at any time obstruct access for emergency vehicles onto the site.


    Pretty simple really, you are permitted hence you have a permit
    No mention of having to display a permit or the introduction of a
    parking company. This overrides anything that the PPC can do
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 17th Jun 17, 9:19 PM
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    pappa golf
    simples , as the management co "what is a permitted vehicle "
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Jun 17, 10:30 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    And those rules do not mention a penalty, nor that there are terms on signs that apply and/or create a contract to pay money...how much money, 10p? Two grand?

    See what I mean, nothing bound you to a contract to pay money.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 17th Jun 17, 10:51 PM
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    • 7,565 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • PARKING
    o Not to park any vehicle other than a permitted vehicle in the parking space allocated.
    o Not to at any time obstruct access for emergency vehicles onto the site.


    Pretty simple really, you are permitted hence you have a permit
    No mention of having to display a permit or the introduction of a
    parking company. This overrides anything that the PPC can do
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    well yes and no , not a permit , you have permission to park in your allocated space by virtue of your lease , permits iaaued by a 3rd party that are not listed on the lease do not count
    Last edited by pappa golf; 17-06-2017 at 10:55 PM.
    • ForumUserOne
    • By ForumUserOne 22nd Jun 17, 8:47 AM
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    • 3 Thanks
    ForumUserOne
    It seems a bit catch 22 to me:

    There's no mention of parking restrictions, having to display a permit, cost of parking, or definition of permitted vehicle in my actual lease. The only reference is the address of the property and then "including parking".

    The 'house rules' document which my letting agency sent me as the 'superior lease' is written by the management company who also arrange permits. They don't have any record of my VRN and there is not mention of parking beyond what I have quoted already. I'm sure if I asked the management company they'd define permitted vehicle as one displaying a permit. But then I also have an assigned space.

    I'm a little unsure where to go from here? Who should I contact and what should I say?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 22nd Jun 17, 9:36 AM
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    The Deep
    The 'house rules' document which my letting agency sent me as the 'superior lease' is written by the management company who also arrange permits.

    Hang on, "house rules" cannot overrule leasehold/AST rights. They cannot impose permit parking which a lease/AST make no mention of.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 22nd Jun 17, 9:37 AM
    • 3,801 Posts
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    Half_way
    A quick skim of this post....
    It appears you do not need a permit as you already have the right to the space. you can not be offered something you already have.
    in other words they can stick their permit where the sun doesn't shine, and you could potentially have the management company and its agents for tortuous interference and a days protection act breach.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • paulstevens64
    • By paulstevens64 22nd Jun 17, 10:00 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    paulstevens64
    OP, you are a tenant on an AST? Can you ask the Letting agent for a copy of the "lease" for your flat? That is the superior lease that is being referred to. That document (your landlords lease with the freeholder) will contain the right to park (or not) and the rules, such as: no commercial, no SORN, no MOT failure etc. Your AST is probably not enough, you need the actual lease for your flat.
    • ForumUserOne
    • By ForumUserOne 22nd Jun 17, 7:27 PM
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    • 3 Thanks
    ForumUserOne
    Yes, I am on an AST. The house rules document was what they supplied as the 'superior lease' but I have asked again for "the lease to the flat (i.e., the landlords lease with the freeholder)". Hopefully they send the correct document this time.

    I have also received a 'notice of intended court proceedings' from the parking agent which just appears to be another demand for payment as it quotes ParkingEye v Beavis. The deadline is 28 June, should I respond with anything before this date?
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