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  • FIRST POST
    • justice17
    • By justice17 2nd Jun 17, 10:18 PM
    • 13Posts
    • 10Thanks
    justice17
    2012 vcs bw leagal
    • #1
    • 2nd Jun 17, 10:18 PM
    2012 vcs bw leagal 2nd Jun 17 at 10:18 PM
    Good evening all. This is a thread made after hours of searching through the stickies and being overwhelmed with the wealth of information that has been shared on this site.

    Today I received a letter from VCS and BW Legal in regards to an unpaid PCN from 11.04.2012!!

    The letter states that my outstanding balance of £174 has been passed onto BW Legal for collection and if payment is not received within 16 days then they will commence legal proceedings.

    My research has informed me that I do need to respond to this letter as seeing Mad hatters thread BW Legal are likely to start court proceedings.

    I am completely unaware of this PNC and have moved home 4 times since 2012 and at a loss as to why they have only sent me this letter now demanding payment. I was the registered keeper at that time but can't remember receiving any letters regarding this parking fine. The letter states that the PNC was issued for failing to display a valid ticket??

    If somebody could be so kind as to point me in the right direction of which thread is most useful for me to begin to challenge this it would be greatly appreciated.

    Many thanks in advance!!
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Jun 17, 10:37 PM
    • 15,211 Posts
    • 19,172 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 2nd Jun 17, 10:37 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Jun 17, 10:37 PM
    they have sent this out because they have 6 years to issue a court claim, so send out scary letters before the deadline, that is why it has happened

    as you say , you need to rebut and refute this as KEEPER (not driver) using the GAN letters posted dozens of times on here, playing ping pong with B W LEGAL

    do not ignore this

    read the sticky threads and find similar threads over the last 12 months and do the same as they did , similar threads are the PEEL CENTRE , STOCKPORT , and the CHORLTON car park too

    as the case is PRE POFA2012 then you stand a good chance of beating this , as POFA came in during oct 2012
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 2nd Jun 17, 10:38 PM
    • 5,673 Posts
    • 7,328 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 2nd Jun 17, 10:38 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Jun 17, 10:38 PM
    Good evening all. This is a thread made after hours of searching through the stickies and being overwhelmed with the wealth of information that has been shared on this site.

    Today I received a letter from VCS and BW Legal in regards to an unpaid PCN from 11.04.2012!!

    The letter states that my outstanding balance of £174 has been passed onto BW Legal for collection and if payment is not received within 16 days then they will commence legal proceedings.

    My research has informed me that I do need to respond to this letter as seeing Mad hatters thread BW Legal are likely to start court proceedings.

    I am completely unaware of this PNC and have moved home 4 times since 2012 and at a loss as to why they have only sent me this letter now demanding payment. I was the registered keeper at that time but can't remember receiving any letters regarding this parking fine. The letter states that the PNC was issued for failing to display a valid ticket??

    If somebody could be so kind as to point me in the right direction of which thread is most useful for me to begin to challenge this it would be greatly appreciated.

    Many thanks in advance!!
    Originally posted by justice17
    VCS scraping the barrel again, and the stick on leeches, BWLegal
    going along with an April 2012 claim

    Both are round the bend if they think such a claim will succeed

    The members on here will help you DEFEAT this low life and in particular BWLegal who happen to be incompetent legals

    Just wait
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • waamo
    • By waamo 2nd Jun 17, 10:48 PM
    • 1,935 Posts
    • 2,310 Thanks
    waamo
    • #4
    • 2nd Jun 17, 10:48 PM
    • #4
    • 2nd Jun 17, 10:48 PM
    Is the letter titled "Letter before claim" or similar wording?
    This space for hire.
    • justice17
    • By justice17 2nd Jun 17, 11:01 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    justice17
    • #5
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:01 PM
    • #5
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:01 PM
    Is the letter titled "Letter before claim" or similar wording?
    Originally posted by waamo
    Hi waamo, VCS letter head has title "your account passed to our legal team" and BW Legal just has ...."in relation to the balance due for above PCN"
    • justice17
    • By justice17 2nd Jun 17, 11:04 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    justice17
    • #6
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:04 PM
    • #6
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:04 PM
    they have sent this out because they have 6 years to issue a court claim, so send out scary letters before the deadline, that is why it has happened

    as you say , you need to rebut and refute this as KEEPER (not driver) using the GAN letters posted dozens of times on here, playing ping pong with B W LEGAL

    do not ignore this

    read the sticky threads and find similar threads over the last 12 months and do the same as they did , similar threads are the PEEL CENTRE , STOCKPORT , and the CHORLTON car park too

    as the case is PRE POFA2012 then you stand a good chance of beating this , as POFA came in during oct 2012
    Originally posted by Redx

    Thanks RedX I'll have a search over the weekend and rustle something up to challenge these low life leeches !!

    I'm terrible at acronyms what does GAN stand for ??
    • waamo
    • By waamo 2nd Jun 17, 11:09 PM
    • 1,935 Posts
    • 2,310 Thanks
    waamo
    • #7
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:09 PM
    • #7
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:09 PM
    Hi waamo, VCS letter head has title "your account passed to our legal team" and BW Legal just has ...."in relation to the balance due for above PCN"
    Originally posted by justice17
    If they are serious about a claim they will title it so. This is just a average scary letter. Sadly it's not even useful if you run out of Andrex.
    This space for hire.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Jun 17, 11:21 PM
    • 15,211 Posts
    • 19,172 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:21 PM
    • #8
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:21 PM
    Thanks RedX I'll have a search over the weekend and rustle something up to challenge these low life leeches !!

    I'm terrible at acronyms what does GAN stand for ??
    Originally posted by justice17
    its not an acronym

    its a username for a knowledgable member over on pepipoo forums
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 2nd Jun 17, 11:30 PM
    • 809 Posts
    • 1,731 Thanks
    Lamilad
    • #9
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:30 PM
    • #9
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:30 PM
    The letter states that my outstanding balance of £174 has been passed onto BW Legal!
    This sounds like the BWL first letter, it will be followed by a 'final notice' then 'letter of claim'. They may chuck a 'discount offer' letter in their too.

    I was the registered keeper at that time
    So you refer to yourself at all times as 'the keeper' DO NOT at any point say who was driving. They don't know and they can't prove it - that's why they always lose in court. They cannot hold you liable as the keeper.

    You don't have to respond at this stage but you would have to reply to the letter of claim.

    That said it's not a bad idea to reply to BWL letters denying the debt. Keep it short and to the point.

    Dear Sirs,

    Re PCN: xxxxxxxx

    I refer to your letter dated xxxxxx

    The debt is denied. I was not the driver on the date in question.

    At the material time there was no law that would allow liability for a private parking charge to be transferred from the driver to the keeper.

    This is the end of matter. You are hereby instructed to cease processing my personal data with immediate effect pursuant to section 10 of the Data Protection Act.

    Do not contact me again save to confirm your compliance with my instructions, which under the DPA must be received within 21 days.
    Last edited by Lamilad; 02-06-2017 at 11:32 PM.
    • justice17
    • By justice17 3rd Jun 17, 7:51 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    justice17
    This sounds like the BWL first letter, it will be followed by a 'final notice' then 'letter of claim'. They may chuck a 'discount offer' letter in their too.


    So you refer to yourself at all times as 'the keeper' DO NOT at any point say who was driving. They don't know and they can't prove it - that's why they always lose in court. They cannot hold you liable as the keeper.

    You don't have to respond at this stage but you would have to reply to the letter of claim.

    That said it's not a bad idea to reply to BWL letters denying the debt. Keep it short and to the point.

    Dear Sirs,

    Re PCN: xxxxxxxx

    I refer to your letter dated xxxxxx

    The debt is denied. I was not the driver on the date in question.

    At the material time there was no law that would allow liability for a private parking charge to be transferred from the driver to the keeper.

    This is the end of matter. You are hereby instructed to cease processing my personal data with immediate effect pursuant to section 10 of the Data Protection Act.

    Do not contact me again save to confirm your compliance with my instructions, which under the DPA must be received within 21 days.
    Originally posted by Lamilad

    Thank you very much Lamilad, your a star !!!!!! I will send them by email and make sure that I keep copies of them all in my sent items just in case they try to box clever and say that I haven't replied within the 16 days. Then wait for the letter of claim and final demand notices.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 3rd Jun 17, 8:04 AM
    • 5,673 Posts
    • 7,328 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thank you very much Lamilad, your a star !!!!!! I will send them by email and make sure that I keep copies of them all in my sent items just in case they try to box clever and say that I haven't replied within the 16 days. Then wait for the letter of claim and final demand notices.
    Originally posted by justice17
    Trust Lamilad, he has already given BWLegal a bloody nose
    and it's his hobby to destroy
    Last edited by beamerguy; 03-06-2017 at 8:11 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 3rd Jun 17, 8:24 AM
    • 809 Posts
    • 1,731 Thanks
    Lamilad
    I will send them by email
    They have a few addresses but use
    Enquiries@bwlegal.co.uk as it generates an auto reply thus proof of receipt.
    • justice17
    • By justice17 7th Jun 17, 9:40 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    justice17
    Hi Guy's

    Just to keep people updated I have sent and email to BWlegal and am awaiting a response.
    I added the account number which they noted on the letter as the PNC number stated Manual?

    I'll post again once I hear back from these weasels !!

    Thanks again for the help so far !!!
    • justice17
    • By justice17 14th Jun 17, 9:10 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    justice17
    Attempt 2 !! I composed a message only to find once I clicked to post a quick reply it had logged me out and deleted it all.. so to avoid my head exploding and my laptop being launched across the room!! I'm going to take a deep breath and start again...

    Evening all hope all are well !!

    Sooo as I returned from work today I opened the door and stepped on a letter from the leeches BW Legal.

    They have kindly invited me to contact them within 7 days to discuss payment of the ludicrous balance of £174.00.

    ~ In response to me stating that I was not the driver, they have referred me to the Elliott v Loake case (1982). As I have not provided evidence to who was driving they presume that I was the driver.

    The have also added a sizeable extract from the DVLA release of information policy, spouting that they are allowed to get information about drivers so that motorists don't park anywhere without fear of reparation !!

    I'm now considering my next move, do I still ask them to prove that I was the driver, or go down the route of stating that the date of the PNC was early 2012 which was before they were even able to hold the keeper liable??

    Or Both ??

    Lamilad the correspondence tennis with BW Legal, am I looking at a full 5 sets with tiebreaks after each one ??

    Because I am up for it if its !! Lol
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jun 17, 9:20 PM
    • 49,037 Posts
    • 62,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    They have kindly invited me to contact them within 7 days to discuss payment of the ludicrous balance of £174.00.
    You'd pay less if you lost in court - and we don't expect to see ANY losses v BW Legal, here.

    I'm now considering my next move, do I still ask them to prove that I was the driver, or go down the route of stating that the date of the PNC was early 2012 which was before they were even able to hold the keeper liable??

    Or Both ??
    I would go for option 2, not saying 'prove I was the driver'.

    Just 'this is non-POFA and over five years ago'. You could add that it is known that VCS and Excel are owned by the same person and Excel were banned in 2012 by the DVLA for misleading wording, suggesting that a keeper could be liable and/or was responsible for some sort of obligation to name the driver:

    Discussed here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72456735#post72456735

    ...making the point, do VCS seriously think they can now allege that registered keepers in pre-POFA cases had such obligations, knowing that the DVLA banned Excel for saying exactly that? Skating on thin ice, VCS.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-06-2017 at 10:40 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 14th Jun 17, 9:37 PM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,745 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Dear Sirs

    Your assessment of the DPA is noted but is rejected as entirely inaccurate.

    The "parking event" was over 5 years ago. I cannot be expected to recall who was driving the car. Nor am I obliged by any precedent or enactment to identify the driver.

    The case of Elliott v Loake is, as your firm well knows, not applicable. Your assertion that it is precedent for an automatic presumption that I was the driver of the vehicle, merely because I was its registered keeper, which it is for me to rebut, is again wholly inaccurate - a fact which both you and your client must know since you have been informed as such in other similar claims and by a number of different members of the judiciary. In fact, the Elliott case was a criminal case in which there was a finding that the keeper was driving after the court heard overwhelming forensic and witness evidence to this effect. The burden of proof in this matter lies with the Claimant, as it does in every claim. There is absolutely nothing unique about a private parking charge which reverses this burden.

    Put simply, your client has no viable claim to bring against me. Please therefore desist from writing to me further, because such action is nothing more than harassment.

    If your client persists, then please supply me with any evidence that I was driving the vehicle on the relevant date, together with all information on which your client will rely on proving its claim - including but not limited to the landowner contract, the signage displayed on the land in April 2012, a plan showing where such signage was displayed, the size and height of the signs, a plan showing where the vehicle was parked and copies of all photographs taken of the vehicle, along with a copy of the original PCN. This is core information which your client is obliged to supply pursuant to paragraphs 6(a) and (c) of the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct.

    Yours faithfully etc

    Sorry for any typos, I'm using my phone.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Jun 17, 9:37 PM
    • 1,935 Posts
    • 2,310 Thanks
    waamo
    E vs L relied on forensic data to prove who the driver was. I would be tempted to write to them pointing this out. Then demand to know how they obtained forensic details of you.

    Go on to say you believe this to be a gross intrusion of privacy and the Information Commissioner should be involved as they are processing highly confidential data that they have no right to have.

    It would be interesting to see how they react.
    This space for hire.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Jun 17, 9:45 PM
    • 14,054 Posts
    • 22,086 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Elliot v Locke debunked here.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/vcs-slapped-with-costs-for.html
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 14th Jun 17, 10:02 PM
    • 809 Posts
    • 1,731 Thanks
    Lamilad
    It would be interesting if you told them you could quote numerous claim numbers where the judge has dismissed EvL as completely irrelevant, including several where the claimant has been reprimanded for trying to BS the court into believing it... Then ask them to quote one claim no where the judge has accepted it as relevant.

    You could also tell them if they so much as mention AJH films you will refer to the recent appeal case involving Daz Clayton​.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Jun 17, 10:14 PM
    • 1,935 Posts
    • 2,310 Thanks
    waamo
    It would be interesting if you told them you could quote numerous claim numbers where the judge has dismissed EvL as completely irrelevant, including several where the claimant has been reprimanded for trying to BS the court into believing it... Then ask them to quote one claim no where the judge has accepted it as relevant.

    You could also tell them if they so much as mention AJH films you will refer to the recent appeal case involving Daz Clayton​.
    Originally posted by Lamilad
    I agree. Go in hard against them would be my attitude. Challenge them and make life difficult.

    They rely on standard template letters. Anything that makes them have to compose a proper reply is eating into their profits. Get them off script and make them work.
    This space for hire.
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