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    • MSE Megan F
    • By MSE Megan F 1st Jun 17, 5:27 PM
    • 80Posts
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    MSE Megan F
    0 WOW
    Fury as Ryanair seats passengers 'rows apart' unless they pay to sit together
    • #1
    • 1st Jun 17, 5:27 PM
    0 WOW
    Fury as Ryanair seats passengers 'rows apart' unless they pay to sit together 1st Jun 17 at 5:27 PM
    Irate passengers have accused Ryanair of routinely allocating groups of travellers seats in different rows in a bid to force them to pay to sit together, with some claiming the budget airline has changed its seating policy.....

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    • budgetflyer
    • By budgetflyer 14th Jun 17, 12:12 PM
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    budgetflyer
    How is 2 adults (who have the option to pay to sit together) sitting apart a safety issue? Ryanair addressed the situation so that children are ALWAYS sitting with at least one adult member of a booking..
    To even compare a horrific tower block fire is ludicrous
    • agarnett
    • By agarnett 14th Jun 17, 11:23 PM
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    agarnett
    I take it you hadn't a clue that a 2016 style modernised London tower block with possibly 500 souls on board in 2017 could go up like a dodgy firework?

    But you know all about the limitations of safety risks in modernised constantly messed with 2017 style airline operations and have dismissed them completely as insignificant and not comparable?

    There's up to 189 passengers and minimum 6 crew on a 737-800. If something goes badly wrong, chances are more will die than in your dodgy tower block. And it isn't fixed to terra firma. Got all the bases covered have we?
    Ludicrous to suggest otherwise, is it? Who's in charge ? Know what they are doing when they bvgger about with passenger expectations and baggage handler expectations, do they?

    Not a given, from what I saw this week.

    In an emergency do families sat 10 rows apart stay put to await rescue or exit immediately or (let me think what else might happen in the available (proverbial) 90 seconds before fire engulfs the aircraft ... duh!)
    Last edited by agarnett; 14-06-2017 at 11:29 PM.
    • richardw
    • By richardw 15th Jun 17, 10:54 AM
    • 17,742 Posts
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    richardw
    Get writing to those transport ministers!
    Posts are not advice and must not be relied upon.
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 15th Jun 17, 11:04 AM
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    buglawton
    How is 2 adults (who have the option to pay to sit together) sitting apart a safety issue? Ryanair addressed the situation so that children are ALWAYS sitting with at least one adult member of a booking..
    To even compare a horrific tower block fire is ludicrous
    Originally posted by budgetflyer
    agarnett was referring to Ryanair's dodgy and inconsistent baggage handling caused by the overhead luggage being switched to hold at last moment. It's a security issue. That's really subject for another thread (or the flyertalk community)
    Got a fur sink. An electric dog polisher. A gasoline powered turtleneck sweater. And, of course, I bought some dumb stuff, too. –Steve Martin
    • jpsartre
    • By jpsartre 15th Jun 17, 12:05 PM
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    jpsartre
    Moving hand luggage to hold happens on every airline. I've no idea why someone would consider it a security risk.
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 15th Jun 17, 12:54 PM
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    PeacefulWaters
    agarnett was referring to Ryanair's dodgy and inconsistent baggage handling caused by the overhead luggage being switched to hold at last moment. It's a security issue.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    if the luggage has already hone through security, why is it a security issue?

    Concise answer appreciated.
    • richardw
    • By richardw 15th Jun 17, 2:35 PM
    • 17,742 Posts
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    richardw
    if the luggage has already hone through security, why is it a security issue?

    Concise answer appreciated.
    Originally posted by PeacefulWaters
    Please read post #76 in this thread.
    Posts are not advice and must not be relied upon.
    • agarnett
    • By agarnett 15th Jun 17, 3:02 PM
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    agarnett
    Moving hand luggage to hold happens on every airline. I've no idea why someone would consider it a security risk.
    Originally posted by jpsartre
    That's why you won't be at the sharp end of airline operations any time soon.
    • jpsartre
    • By jpsartre 15th Jun 17, 3:55 PM
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    jpsartre
    Please read post #76 in this thread.
    Originally posted by richardw
    That post is nothing but ill-informed speculation.
    • agarnett
    • By agarnett 15th Jun 17, 4:28 PM
    • 1,253 Posts
    • 514 Thanks
    agarnett
    Please read post #76 in this thread.
    by richardw
    That post is nothing but ill-informed speculation.
    by jpsartre
    Says you.

    Have you actually any experience of the systems and analysis of the risks?

    My post #76 is written from the point of view of someone with multi-angled experience of aviation operations and of responsibility for accurate security risk assessment - again from a number of angles. I don't claim to be an expert, but I am not a normal observer of what goes on. I am the opposite of what jpsartre wishes he or she could make stick.

    My post #76 isn't intended to identify the risks exactly for any old n'er do well to chance their hand at exploiting. It was posted to make people think.

    Your purpose. jpsartre, is what?
    Last edited by agarnett; 15-06-2017 at 5:15 PM.
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 15th Jun 17, 6:04 PM
    • 796 Posts
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    IAmWales
    I don't claim to be an expert
    Originally posted by agarnett
    Indeed.

    So what are the risks of a security checked piece of hand luggage being put in the hold?
    • es5595
    • By es5595 15th Jun 17, 6:21 PM
    • 10 Posts
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    es5595
    I flew Ryanair on Friday (9th) and we were deliberately split at opposite ends of the aircraft, something like 5F and 28A. Multiple other couples around us had also been split, cue lots of last-minute seat swapping for those who were desperate to sit together.

    As other posters had said, previously they just allocated the next available seats, you were probably together or at least close (handy if your bought food/drink that's shared), but the new system is deliberately splitting up bookings.

    Most people are off on holiday or returning from holiday and apart from the mild inconvenience aren't that bothered, and aren't going to pay to sit together. The only safety concern is that, in the event of a crash landing, fire etc then loved ones are going to want to be together, and will cause a serious danger at that point to ensure they are.

    I can see parents being more than happy for a 13 year old to sit alone for a two hour flight, but carnage will break loose if her mother finds out they're about to make an emergency landing or a terrorist incident occurs and she's split from her daughter. I'm sure all parents would attest to moving heaven and earth to get to their child in that sitauation, and noone is going to stop them!
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 15th Jun 17, 6:35 PM
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    buglawton
    if the luggage has already hone through security, why is it a security issue?

    Concise answer appreciated.
    Originally posted by PeacefulWaters
    agarnett was of the opinion that last minute bag switches are possible, I guess that means if person A goes through security with a case, Person B can get the bag into the hold under their name. Or maybe person A can leave the scene altogether after getting their case into the hold. The new system certainly makes a mockery of the passport check that's normally done when you check in cases.
    Got a fur sink. An electric dog polisher. A gasoline powered turtleneck sweater. And, of course, I bought some dumb stuff, too. –Steve Martin
    • jpsartre
    • By jpsartre 15th Jun 17, 7:27 PM
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    jpsartre
    agarnett was of the opinion that last minute bag switches are possible, I guess that means if person A goes through security with a case, Person B can get the bag into the hold under their name.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    Of course that's possible. It's always been possible since the beginning of commercial air travel with every airline. It's not a security risk.

    Or maybe person A can leave the scene altogether after getting their case into the hold.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    Again, something that has always been possible with every airline. Chances are the bag will be offloaded if that happens.
    • agarnett
    • By agarnett 15th Jun 17, 9:49 PM
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    agarnett
    Indeed.

    So what are the risks of a security checked piece of hand luggage being put in the hold?
    Originally posted by IAmWales
    Think about it.

    First is the 'security check' (your words) the same for what arrives at the hold one route versus what arrives via another? Hint: quarantine?

    Second, what checks exist to link actual flying passengers with flying luggage via the two different processes, and are they equally bombproof? Hint: I saw two Swissport employees discussing a doubtful bag. One saw it, the other didn't, even when given a hint about the labelling.

    That's the thing about Ryanair operations ... as a passenger you frequently get to stand around in unusual bits of airports and on the ramp and can see some of the rough edges created by ever changing ways of doing things their way, whereas with some other airlines you perhaps tend to be kept moving and perhaps don't get the chance to observe quite so many oddities close up!
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 15th Jun 17, 10:44 PM
    • 6,390 Posts
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    PeacefulWaters
    Please read post #76 in this thread.
    Originally posted by richardw
    I'll pass. I only have a life expectancy of 24 months.
    • agarnett
    • By agarnett 15th Jun 17, 10:54 PM
    • 1,253 Posts
    • 514 Thanks
    agarnett
    You are excused PeacefulWaters, but one wonders whether taking a Ryanair trip enhances that expectancy - I can recommend a few nice Ryanair destinations if you are feeling lucky
    • coffeehound
    • By coffeehound 16th Jun 17, 9:15 AM
    • 965 Posts
    • 1,561 Thanks
    coffeehound
    Yes Ryanair have expanded their fleet from barely many more than 100 aircraft over the past 15 years or more by exclusively ordering new in batches from Boeing, but they now have some 400 aircraft and guess how old the oldest are (choose an aircraft reg no. and click to find out)
    Originally posted by agarnett
    Wonder whether the executives have to pay extra to sit together on the Learjets?

    Interesting that they're registered to the Isle of Man. Presumably a tax minimisation wheeze.

    .
    Last edited by coffeehound; 16-06-2017 at 12:27 PM.
    • agarnett
    • By agarnett 19th Jun 17, 10:00 PM
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    agarnett
    OK now it has actually happened to us.

    32C and 7D for two persons on the same booking. At least both are aisle seats so we get a head start at running towards each other in an emergency ... Thanks Ryanair ...

    OK pay attention now - couple of serious airliner safety questions for everyone
    • How fast must an airline be able to evacuate an aircraft safely stationary on the ground in an emergency with all exits available to be opened and used? Anyone know?
    • OK next question. What's the fastest that a typically high load factor Ryanair aircraft (33 rows of 6 seats minus three in row 1) can be emptied in an emergency with a new twist - several sets of loved ones are seated at opposite ends of the aircraft and are - let me see - human i.e. they want to make sure that their loved ones get out with them?
    Since airlines themselves cannot be trusted to do a proper job (more than one in MSE'ers recent experience it seems) and since regulators seem totally behind the curve also, shall we on MSE take a lead and have a common sense review of the safety test for all airlines who wish to play silly bvggers like Ryanair?

    Let's take the airline's typical group booking patterns, and then redo the test with some new conditions. So let's say our new test requires that all those members of groups who book together - be they golfing mates, sports teams, or schoolchildren with supervisors, or families - should all exit simultaneously from the front, the middle, or the rear of, in this case the 737-800 with Ryanair seating plan, but not a mixture of the three. I am being easy on Ryanair and not insisting that group members exit from the same side, so long as they can see each other exit in the immediate vicinity, that's ok. That's what people who care about people do. They check those in their care. They do not listen blindly to sundry young cabin attendants with unfamiliar accents. Passengers in a bit of a panic do what they think best for their people, and maybe not yours or Ryanair's finest.

    How much will that add to the answer to the first question?

    And whilst we are redesigning the test for a modern age, why don't we also review all these airliner tests for carriers who do not allow any free hold baggage, with one further condition - let us insist that a percentage of our evacuation test passengers act like real lo-cost passengers, and try to take baggage with them on the escape. Yes we all know that's silly, don't we? But there's often no telling the sort of silliness that arises in a panic situation especially if you add the tempting lo-cost clean getaway ingredient of "well all my baggage is above my head, so I may as well grab it". We know it is what happens with the 'lo-cost/hold baggage costs lots more' demographic. Ryanair has most baggage in the cabin, so shall we say lets assume 20% of the evacuation test passengers also take their cabin bags? Is that fair and typical?

    How many extra seconds might that add?

    I mean, these old standard tests could be well flawed by now when airlines mess with the decades old presumed model, mightn't they? If one thinks a little like I do, one does wonder how far we may have inadvertently headed back full circle to another Manchester 1985 type problem.

    How do you armchair "safety is assured by whatever seat allocation system the airline fancies next" experts like them apples?
    Last edited by agarnett; 20-06-2017 at 12:41 AM.
    • budgetflyer
    • By budgetflyer 20th Jun 17, 6:20 AM
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    • 3,590 Thanks
    budgetflyer
    Interesting. You have (almost) convinced me. Now, I hope you now apply the no price is too high for safety principle and pay to move next to your missus.
    Just say,Ryanair, do a U turn on this, there are always still going to be the odd disappointment, due to the maths. Should their systems stop the sale if they can't allocate seats together on safety grounds?
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