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  • FIRST POST
    • KieranDouglas
    • By KieranDouglas 31st May 17, 8:33 PM
    • 8Posts
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    KieranDouglas
    Unexpected CCJ From Civil Enforcement LTD
    • #1
    • 31st May 17, 8:33 PM
    Unexpected CCJ From Civil Enforcement LTD 31st May 17 at 8:33 PM
    Hello, im new to here so please excuse if this topic has been repeated a million times.

    Im slighly confused on all this CCJ stuff against me which is a 1st for me.

    I recently did a credit history check with Clear Score against myseld realising i have a unexpected CCJ affecting my records. Knowing nothing of this i digged deep to eventually find out from the County Court its been put on by Civil Enforcement LTD whom ive never heard of in my life. The courts were reluctant to give much details of the nature & reason why it was put on by them, ive found they are a parking firm agency (you guys probably already know). All i have gathered is a email from the courts stating a fine for outstanding debts & damages on 01.05.2016 for £251. To the best of my knowledge i do not owe anything or have any unpaid PCNs from last year, only 1 this year from NPM in Northampton which i ignored, however that was early months of this year not 01.05.2016. Also they have me down as my old address which i assume why i have not recieved any correspondence & completely bewildered by finding this out.

    Its difficult to figure what to do as they dont say the nature of where its come from i.e. Location of fine? Also frustrating when you try to contact Civil Enforcement LTD & always goes to a automated payment line.

    I assume my best bet is to set this CCJ aside? But what do i have to stand on if ive physically not revieved anything for proof of evidence? Its all word of mouth from me. Any ideas guys? Much appreciated
Page 1
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 31st May 17, 8:40 PM
    • 26,086 Posts
    • 33,072 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    • #2
    • 31st May 17, 8:40 PM
    • #2
    • 31st May 17, 8:40 PM
    1st thing have you updated the records on the dvla, car and driving licence (separately) to make sure you don't have any further problems waiting to kick you when this is sorted. Others will be along to help the rest of it.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • KieranDouglas
    • By KieranDouglas 31st May 17, 9:19 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    KieranDouglas
    • #3
    • 31st May 17, 9:19 PM
    • #3
    • 31st May 17, 9:19 PM
    I did that 1st thing when moving new property, however that would of been June time of last year. Im in the military so technically i work & live away a lot, at the time of 01.05.2016 my previous address would of been my Fathers where its the only address i could hold onto until i moved into my own property. Confusing thing is the previous address my Father still held for tenants as he rented it out as he moved out himself & brought land to build his home on, hence why no-one has noticed any correspondence for that previous address (should there of been any sent)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Jun 17, 12:59 AM
    • 51,504 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 1st Jun 17, 12:59 AM
    • #4
    • 1st Jun 17, 12:59 AM
    You will see what to do in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread (get it SET ASIDE, which takes a bit of research as it's not definitely going to happen).

    Costs you £255 but this wipes the CCJ completely if the court agrees, and they are likely to, if you do as we advise. If you panic and contact CEL to pay them, you will NOT get the CCJ wiped. Paying it and having it marked 'satisfied' still dents your credit rating for six years, so don't make that mistake.

    So, read the NEWBIES Thread (not the first post, the second one of it, and the section about Set Aside). And read these threads, starting with saggi's success:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5581374

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585047

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5561849

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5636608

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5649948
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Jun 17, 7:14 AM
    • 15,490 Posts
    • 24,201 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 1st Jun 17, 7:14 AM
    • #5
    • 1st Jun 17, 7:14 AM
    More reading on set asides etc.

    http://www.aboutsmallclaims.co.uk/

    http://www.aboutsmallclaims.co.uk/county-court-judgement-against-you.html

    http://www.aboutsmallclaims.co.uk/set-aside-default-court-judgment.html
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • hoohoo
    • By hoohoo 1st Jun 17, 8:16 AM
    • 1,675 Posts
    • 3,108 Thanks
    hoohoo
    • #6
    • 1st Jun 17, 8:16 AM
    • #6
    • 1st Jun 17, 8:16 AM
    Also worth noting you may have a counterclaim against them, so as well as wiping the charge, you might end up in profit.

    This guy counterclaimed and got £900 (£500 counterclaim, £400 costs for their unreasonableness)

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/motorist-awarded-900-for-data.html
    Dedicated to driving up standards in parking
    • KieranDouglas
    • By KieranDouglas 1st Jun 17, 1:16 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    KieranDouglas
    • #7
    • 1st Jun 17, 1:16 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Jun 17, 1:16 PM
    Costs you £255 but this wipes the CCJ completely if the court agrees, and they are likely to, if you do as we advise. If you panic and contact CEL to pay them, you will NOT get the CCJ wiped. Paying it and having it marked 'satisfied' still dents your credit rating for six years, so don't make that mistake.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Cheers guys, ill follow them up & read.

    If i pay the £255, ive heard its possible to get it refunded back? Also, to get this straight if i win the case will it automatically clear from my credit history no longer effecting it? & if i loose for whatever reason, what happens from there? I have to pay the outstanding debt & still remain on my records for 6 years?
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 1st Jun 17, 1:49 PM
    • 3,834 Posts
    • 5,410 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #8
    • 1st Jun 17, 1:49 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Jun 17, 1:49 PM
    The golden rule is once you pay up, its pretty much game over.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Jun 17, 2:08 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,106 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 1st Jun 17, 2:08 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Jun 17, 2:08 PM
    If i pay the £255, ive heard its possible to get it refunded back?
    Yes, you will have seen that from the first link I gave you, saggi's case.

    to get this straight if i win the case will it automatically clear from my credit history no longer effecting it?
    It's not about 'winning' at this stage. A set aside hearing is just that, to set aside the CCJ (wipe it off your credit history completely), not to hear the entire case and decide who wins/loses. Because you can show that you did NOT get the court papers, and that as soon as you learned of the CCJ you acted immediately (now) to set it aside AND you have prospects of defending this case in court (hence why you need to know what your defence points will be) you shouldn't fail at the set aside hearing, IMHO.


    & if i loose for whatever reason, what happens from there? I have to pay the outstanding debt & still remain on my records for 6 years?
    I've only heard of one ill-prepared person on pepipoo forum not getting a CCJ set aside and he would have done, had he been more familiar with what his defence would be ('no keeper liability' springs to mind, with CEL). NEVER with CEL, these are super easy to defend so I have every confidence that you WILL get the CCJ set aside and might even get the Judge to award your costs immediately, like saggi (if not then, afterwards at a hearing).

    You may have to counter-claim (or claim) to force this to a hearing after the set aside hearing.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KieranDouglas
    • By KieranDouglas 3rd Jul 17, 9:15 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    KieranDouglas
    Many thanks, sorry for the delay.

    I have been researching from your posts (i.e. saggis case) & looks promising however at this stage it is all very much going over my head. Am i correct in saying that section 10 of the n244 form is where i place my 1st intial statement? If so, do you suggest i use saggis statement as a draft template or is there 1 that exists? This is all new to me so i generally dont know where to even begin creating a correct & convincing statement from scratch
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jul 17, 2:15 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,106 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Use that one as a template statement and show us first.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KieranDouglas
    • By KieranDouglas 15th Jul 17, 4:08 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    KieranDouglas
    As follows is my version of the statement, please tell me your thoughts.

    1.1 - Struggled to word correctly in my terms as i have generally moved around a lot because of work, still to the point though they used correspondence where i moved out from before the date the claim was set.

    2.3 & 2.4 - Just to clear up on that subject, in simple terms, is it trying to prove that no matter who the registered keeper of the vehicle is, theres nothing they can do unless they prove who was driving at the time of the supposed incident?

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In The County Court Business Centre
    Claim Number: (NUMBER)


    BETWEEN:


    Civil Enforcement LTD (Claimant)
    And
    (FULL NAME) (Defendant)


    _____________________________________


    WITNESS STATEMENT

    ______________________________________


    I am (FULL NAME) and I am the Defendant in this matter.
    This is my supporting Statement in support of my application dated (DATE) and wish that the following to be ordered:

    1. The judgment dated (DATE) to be set aside and dismissed.

    2. The Claimant do pay and reimburse the Defendant's costs of the court fee to the sum of (COST).


    1. Default Judgement

    1.1. I understand that the Claimant obtained a Default Judgement against me as the Defendant on (DATE). However, this Claim form has not been served at my current address or to my knowledge any of the addresses within the period until now and I was not aware of the Default Judgement until (DATE) when I was doing a routine check on my credit file. I understand that this Claim was served at an OLD ADDRESS (ADDRESS). However, I have moved from that particular address as from the (DATE) and between then upon till now I have moved various locations due to my job role (HM Armed Forces) and currently am situated between a work address and personal address. I can support my current personal address by providing details for the purposes of being named on the Council Tax and for work addresses can provide job related paperwork.

    1.2. I have also never received any previous documentation from the Claimant in this matter and I was never able to properly challenge the Claimant’s Claim.

    1.3. On the (DATE) I contacted County Court Business Centre to find out details of the Default Judgement, however The Particulars of Claim contain no details of the alleged incident and I do not know what the Default Judgement relates to.

    1.4. On (DATE) I attempted to contact the Claimant using information given to me by County Court Business Centre. I was not able to get through to a member of the Claimant’s staff to discuss, nor have I received a response to my answer phone messages left on the Claimant’s answer phone. This means as the Defendant, I still do not have any details of the incident the Claimant alleges has taken place, other than the summary of charges now owed, which is shown on The Particular of Claim.

    1.5. I believe the Claimant has behaved unreasonably in pursuing a Claim against me without ensuring they hold a correct and up to date correspondence for the Defendant. The Claimant’s persistent failure to use correct and current addresses results is an unnecessary burden for individuals and the justice system across the country.

    1.6. On the basis provided above I would suggest that the Claimant did not fulfil their duty to use the Defendant’s correct address or act with genuine intention to alert the Defendant when bringing the Claim, therefor purposely using methods in which to win the Claimant’s Claim.

    1.7. Considering the above, I was most definitely unable to defend this Claim and believe that the Default Judgement against me was issued incorrectly and should be set aside.


    2. Order Dismissing the Claim

    2.1. I further believe that the original Claim by the Claimant has no genuine honesty and should be dismissed. I understand that the Claimant is a parking company which seeks to claim for ‘Parking Charge Notices’ which the Claimant I can only assume believes are due to a result of an alleged breach of contract for parking by a motorist.

    2.2. If the Claimant has obtained details of the vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper and has used those details to make a claim for a ‘Parking Charge Notice’, I dispute the Claim as I do not know the wording of the contract nor do I know the means by which the contract was alleged to come into force.

    2.3. If the Claimant can evidence that the alleged incident relates to a vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper, any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant would have needed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Otherwise, the Claimant is required to prove the driver of the vehicle they claim was involved in the alleged incident. I submit that the Claimant cannot provide such evidence and further submit the Claimant cannot hold the Defendant automatically liable for the alleged incident merely for being the Registered Keeper of a vehicle.


    2.4. A requirement of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is that this any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must be served within 14 days of the date of the alleged incident. Since I have not received any single correspondence from the Claimant prior to finding out about the Default Judgement, I submit the Claimant will not have complied with the requirements of the act and cannot claim this charge against me as the Registered Keeper.

    2.5. I further submit that the Claimant’s Claim is without genuine purpose due to substantial issues in law. This is for the following reasons:

    2.5.1. Lack of Standing by Claimant: The Claimant is unlikely to be the landowner of the car park in question and will have no proprietary interest in it. Any consideration will have been provided by the landholder and only they would have been able sue for any damages or trespass.

    2.5.2. No Loss Suffered by Claimant: The Claimant’s Claim is based on outstanding debt and damages for alleged breach of contract. It is a fundamental principle of English Law that a party who suffers damages through breach of contract can only seek through court action to be put back in the same position as they would have been if the breach had not occurred. In order to do so, they must demonstrate their actual, or genuine, pre-estimate of loss. I submit that no loss has been suffered by the Claimant as a result of any alleged breaches of contract on the part of any motorist of the vehicle of which I am the Registered Keeper. I further submit that any loss to the landholder, they would be the only party in this case to be able to claim such losses.

    2.5.3. Claimed Charge Is an Unenforceable Penalty: I further submit that the Parking Charge that the Claimant claimed, given it is not based on any loss suffered due to the alleged breach, is nothing but an unenforceable penalty.

    2.5.4. No Contract with The Claimant: Any contract must have offer, acceptance and consideration both ways. There would not have been consideration from the Claimant to the motorist; the fee for parking benefits the landowners, not the Claimant. Therefore, there is no consideration from the motorist to Civil Enforcement LTD.

    2.6. On this basis I believe that the Claimant has not provided any reasonable cause of action and that the Claim should be dismissed in its entirety and further believe the Claimant should reimburse the Defendant’s court fee costs.

    2.7. In order to make informed decisions and statements in my defence as Keeper of the Vehicle, I will require as much picture proof evidence and copies of all paperwork from the Claimant.




    Statement of Truth:
    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.
    Full name: (FULL NAME)

    Dated: (DATE)

    Signed:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jul 17, 7:05 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,106 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    2.3 & 2.4 - Just to clear up on that subject, in simple terms, is it trying to prove that no matter who the registered keeper of the vehicle is, theres nothing they can do unless they prove who was driving at the time of the supposed incident?
    Yes indeed. Get that emailed to the CCBC as a PDF (signed & dated first, then scanned).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KieranDouglas
    • By KieranDouglas 17th Jul 17, 10:51 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    KieranDouglas
    No worries, will do & shall let you know on my progress
    • KieranDouglas
    • By KieranDouglas 21st Sep 17, 8:57 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    KieranDouglas
    Update on my progress. I currently have been given a hearing date for 24th Oct, what shall i now be expecting prior to the preparation of this hearing? What should i gather? Any help ill be greatly thankful
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 21st Sep 17, 9:23 PM
    • 33,243 Posts
    • 17,186 Thanks
    Quentin
    Have you used your real name as your forum name?


    If so you need to contact MSE to get it changed to something totally anonymous


    The ppcs monitor here and can use your posts against you
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 21st Sep 17, 9:26 PM
    • 15,490 Posts
    • 24,201 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Update on my progress. I currently have been given a hearing date for 24th Oct, what shall i now be expecting prior to the preparation of this hearing? What should i gather? Any help ill be greatly thankful
    Originally posted by KieranDouglas
    Are the next stages not already covered in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Sep 17, 11:31 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,106 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would read other threads about setting aside a CEL CCJ, by searching 'CEL CCJ' on this board.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KieranDouglas
    • By KieranDouglas 18th Oct 17, 11:14 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    KieranDouglas
    Right, so in preparation for this, I have come up with the following printouts/evidence that ill take along with me to hopefully support my case:

    - Screenshots of my Clear Score account court judgements & screenshots of emails from The County Court (Clear Score being my 1st initial point of alert & County Court emails explaining the date, damage charges & any other useful references)

    - All County Court letters

    - Printout of date moved from 'alleged' old address to address at current time when claim was issued (Can gather these details from work showing exact location on what day)

    - Printout of all various locations I have moved to within the period of being in the military up until now (Showing that I generally do move around often & proving my address often changes)

    - Council tax & utility bill of current address (Will provide this to show my current location in which no correspondence has been sent to from CEL)

    - Copy of my military driving file & DVLA drivers record (This showing the date my address would of changed on DVLA from the 'alleged' old address to a military barracks BEFORE the claim was set at me

    - Following publications/articles: (Apologies for no links provided, MSE doesnt allow me)

    Schedule 4 Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 - (Will highlight area 9.2)

    POPLA Lead Adjudicator Annual Report 2015 (Will printout 'Understanding Keeper Liability' pages 14-15 & also 'Appeals Registered' page 36 - This shows the amount of CEL appeals alone registered in comparison to other PPCs)

    Direct Gov - New Measures To Protect Consumers From Debt Claims

    Responsive - CEL Media Article

    Ipswich Star - CEL Media Article

    Parking Prankster - CEL Media Article

    Also, I have put in my statement for the Court charges to be reimbursed, would it be wrong to ask for additional charges from CEL at the hearing? Or would that then be too late? (Should of included within my initial statement) If so, how do I proceed at the hearing with that? Does it need to be formally annotated & backed up to a reason as why? I.E. Parking charges, travel costs, time of work etc.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 18th Oct 17, 11:20 PM
    • 16,504 Posts
    • 20,667 Thanks
    Redx
    read the loadsofchildren123 comments in her posts about claiming costs and the detailed list etc that she made , which should go into the court days before the hearing

    read the recent thread where the defendant won about £1500 in costs for various reasons that they detailed in a reply

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5662425&page=3

    its all in these threads if you search and look , I know because I read dozens daily
    Last edited by Redx; 18-10-2017 at 11:34 PM. Reason: link added
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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