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  • FIRST POST
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 31st May 17, 1:51 PM
    • 1,636Posts
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    cantcope
    PIP Mandatory reconsideration
    • #1
    • 31st May 17, 1:51 PM
    PIP Mandatory reconsideration 31st May 17 at 1:51 PM
    i have called and logged with DWP and have since sent a letter off explaining what i think is wrong with their decision and why for the sections i dont think they've marked me fairly on.

    i was awarded 8 points for care and 8 points for mobility giving me standard for both... so right on the edge of nothing...

    I've since read that they could mark me down? is this true?
    !surely not if i'm telling them i don't think they've marked me high enough to begin with?

    Mobility they have completely guessed as they saw me walk 8 footsteps from car to seat in assessment centre. Sit down for an hour and then walk back. i sent in a letter from my MS nurse saying i cannot walk any distance without pain and the need to rest and i chose the no more than 20 metres on the form...
    they have decided i can walk more than 20 metres but no more than 50. how do they know that? i'd love to do that without needing a rest before carrying on!

    worried now does anyone have any experience? trolls need not answer
    Last edited by cantcope; 31-05-2017 at 2:05 PM.
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
Page 1
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 31st May 17, 4:13 PM
    • 856 Posts
    • 726 Thanks
    poppy12345
    • #2
    • 31st May 17, 4:13 PM
    • #2
    • 31st May 17, 4:13 PM
    i have called and logged with DWP and have since sent a letter off explaining what i think is wrong with their decision and why for the sections i dont think they've marked me fairly on.

    i was awarded 8 points for care and 8 points for mobility giving me standard for both... so right on the edge of nothing...

    I've since read that they could mark me down? is this true?
    !surely not if i'm telling them i don't think they've marked me high enough to begin with?

    Mobility they have completely guessed as they saw me walk 8 footsteps from car to seat in assessment centre. Sit down for an hour and then walk back. i sent in a letter from my MS nurse saying i cannot walk any distance without pain and the need to rest and i chose the no more than 20 metres on the form...
    they have decided i can walk more than 20 metres but no more than 50. how do they know that? i'd love to do that without needing a rest before carrying on!

    worried now does anyone have any experience? trolls need not answer
    Originally posted by cantcope
    Yes they can do that. Your award could either increase, stay the same or lose everything. Most MR decisions remain the same though, so you'll most likely have to take it to Tribunal. Did you send any other evidence to support your claim? you'll need the evidence to prove the descriptors apply to you. They won't just "take your word for it" Just because you've ticked the box i'm sorry. The more evidence the better. Good luck.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 31st May 17, 9:20 PM
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    poppy12345
    • #3
    • 31st May 17, 9:20 PM
    • #3
    • 31st May 17, 9:20 PM
    I would be extremely interested to see what evidence is used by cantcope to prove that they can't walk more than 20 metres and just as important, where they managed to get it from as I am in the same position.
    Originally posted by shaun005
    I'm not sure how that's going to help you seeing as we're all different....
    • piefeet
    • By piefeet 31st May 17, 9:57 PM
    • 13 Posts
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    piefeet
    • #4
    • 31st May 17, 9:57 PM
    • #4
    • 31st May 17, 9:57 PM
    my gp told them i cant walk more then 20 meters, they cant call him a liar now can they
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 1st Jun 17, 5:28 AM
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    poppy12345
    • #5
    • 1st Jun 17, 5:28 AM
    • #5
    • 1st Jun 17, 5:28 AM
    Any information is better than nothing.I would have thought
    Originally posted by shaun005
    Evidence can be anything from a letter from yourself or a diary, a letter from someone that knows you well, Occupational Therapist Reports, GP letter, Consultant Reports. It has to be dated within the last 2 years, that's it what it said on my review letter i had last July. Can't help you any further, sorry.
    • Newly retired
    • By Newly retired 1st Jun 17, 12:30 PM
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    Newly retired
    • #6
    • 1st Jun 17, 12:30 PM
    • #6
    • 1st Jun 17, 12:30 PM
    As you have already sent off your letter I wouldn't waste time worrying about it, the chances are they won't change anything at this stage and you may end up having to go to tribunal.
    Meanwhile do what you can to gather evidence as already suggested, read up online advice, and try to get support from Citizens Advice or a disability rights organisation. You may be able to get representation from a local law centre. Ask around locally as well as online. Hope this helps?
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 1st Jun 17, 1:09 PM
    • 1,636 Posts
    • 1,225 Thanks
    cantcope
    • #7
    • 1st Jun 17, 1:09 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Jun 17, 1:09 PM
    They already have a letter from my MS nurse to say i cant walk any distance without pain and the need to rest and that my disease is progressive.
    I'm not sure what else i can send them. video evidence? lol Anyone can say they're tired and cant continue surely?
    I can ask my new MS nurse (original one retired in March )when i see her at the end of the month to write a letter confirming i have very little feeling in my hands and feet making cooking, dressing etc difficult or dangerous but that might be a bit late? I only see her twice a year and my neuro once :/

    oh well. i guess i'll wait and see what happens. all i can do is be honest and felt i needed to ask for reconsideration because the decisions they've made are based on assumptions that aren't true. i feel like i might as well have never bothered filling in the form at all as they've basically called me a liar without any evidence at least now i know I've told them again my capabilities so my conscious is eased.

    Thanks for the replies.
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 2nd Jun 17, 9:14 AM
    • 1,636 Posts
    • 1,225 Thanks
    cantcope
    • #8
    • 2nd Jun 17, 9:14 AM
    • #8
    • 2nd Jun 17, 9:14 AM
    i wont take it to tribunal. i don't want the hassle or the stress and would also mean a days unpaid leave from work which i cant afford.
    i reread the letter i sent this morning and thinking i sounded a bit sarcastic when i put " i wonder if my application was considered at all?"
    oh dear. that's probably going to !!!! them off straight away. but that's exactly how i felt and the lady on the phone told me to put that.. .maybe should have slept on it first :s
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 2nd Jun 17, 11:23 AM
    • 1,050 Posts
    • 1,128 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #9
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:23 AM
    • #9
    • 2nd Jun 17, 11:23 AM
    i wont take it to tribunal.
    Originally posted by cantcope
    Pity.
    It's the tribunal panel who will consider your case carefully and thoroughly.
    A panel would consist of a judge (who knows the PIP descriptors and relevant case law), a doctor, and someone associated with a disability organisation.
    If you really believe that you are unable to cover 20m without stopping due to severe discomfort reliably and for the majority of days then you should explain that to the tribunal panel.
    Your verbal evidence will be very important.
    This is helpful: http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal

    As others have said there is a risk in requesting an MR if you have an award. If an award is reduced, it is usually reduced by the DWP on MR.
    As others have also said it is very rare for the DWP to increase an award at MR stage.
    The MR has effectively become another hoop to get through before your case can be more thoroughly considered (and you can attend to fully explain) at a tribunal.

    If you felt so strongly enough about the decision to request an MR, then don't give up on a tribunal hearing just because of the need to take a day's (or half a day's) holiday.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 2nd Jun 17, 12:02 PM
    • 1,050 Posts
    • 1,128 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    what I have been told the worst bit is preparing for your Tribunal and knowing what to say and how to say it like these professional Welfare Rights people do quoting the law and everything..
    Originally posted by shaun005
    I'm afraid you have been told wrongly.

    It's the role of the judge at the tribunal to know the law, and any relevant case law.
    When appearing at a tribunal, you are certainty not expected to quote law. You need to explain fully how your day-to-day life is affected by your disability / illness, explain the variability, whether you can do tasks reliably etc. Your job is to give the tribunal the information about your condition and abilities so that they can make a correct decision.

    The role of a representative (WRA or benefits caseworker) is primarily to prepare the client. They will go through the activities / descriptors with the client, and advise the client on the merit of their case.
    If it has merit, they help the client to understand how the tribunal decides on particular activities / descriptors, tease out relevant examples from the client and suggest the client makes brief notes on other similar episodes to talk to the panel about.

    They will explain the appeal process, and what the client can expect.

    They will write a submission with the client explaining why the client should be awarded the benefit, then send this to the Tribunal Service in advance of the hearing.

    They will write to the client's GP / CPN / other health professional to get supporting evidence.
    They will help the client gather evidence from carers / family members.

    In short, they work closely with the client to help maximise the chances of a successful outcome.
    At a tribunal, the panel want to hear from the appellant not their representative.
    What they don't do (if they have any sense) is to turn up at tribunal and instruct the judge on the law!!!
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 02-06-2017 at 12:26 PM.
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 2nd Jun 17, 3:04 PM
    • 1,636 Posts
    • 1,225 Thanks
    cantcope
    Pity.


    If you felt so strongly enough about the decision to request an MR, then don't give up on a tribunal hearing just because of the need to take a day's (or half a day's) holiday.
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    Its not that i don't want to take holiday, i don't have any left as its all taken up by my son having chickenpox so no childcare for a week and hes starting school this September and is on half days for 3 weeks... if i have to go to court, and when i now have hospital appointments its all unpaid leave.

    I also don't really want to go to court. my life is stressful enough already. more stress means more relapses which in turn means more unpaid leave i think i would only suffer that if they take my award away completely. but i'd rather not.
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 11th Jun 17, 1:05 PM
    • 1,636 Posts
    • 1,225 Thanks
    cantcope
    i got the letter back and they have kept scores as they are. i'm going to speak with my new MS nurse at my appointment in fortnight and see if she can give me some written evidence for me to appeal. if not then i dont see the point as other than showing them things i cant do nothing is going to change... don't fancy a scene from ready steady cook in court to show them how i drop hot food, cut my fingers, burn my hands and arms etc...
    how do i prove im in constant pain when i walk? cry? wail?
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 11th Jun 17, 1:46 PM
    • 9,956 Posts
    • 18,405 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    i got the letter back and they have kept scores as they are. i'm going to speak with my new MS nurse at my appointment in fortnight and see if she can give me some written evidence for me to appeal. if not then i dont see the point as other than showing them things i cant do nothing is going to change... don't fancy a scene from ready steady cook in court to show them how i drop hot food, cut my fingers, burn my hands and arms etc...
    how do i prove im in constant pain when i walk? cry? wail?
    Originally posted by cantcope
    Just passing by... remember appeal tribunal may be a bit more interested in all the evidence... many do successfully challenge decisions with greater success at that stage... there is of course always risk too of a worse decision... but generally low. Your own testimony at tribunal in person could be persuasive.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 16th Jun 17, 11:44 AM
    • 1,636 Posts
    • 1,225 Thanks
    cantcope
    quick update. my new MS nurse says i must go to tribunal. She is writing me a strong worded letter to send with lots of evidence. anyone know how long the tribunal stage takes? weeks? months?
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 16th Jun 17, 12:05 PM
    • 9,956 Posts
    • 18,405 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    quick update. my new MS nurse says i must go to tribunal. She is writing me a strong worded letter to send with lots of evidence. anyone know how long the tribunal stage takes? weeks? months?
    Originally posted by cantcope
    Plus from new thread to help other posters help you I quote the following post:
    "Has anyone done this? was it stressful? did you have to go to court?
    Did you fill in the form or just send a letter with more evidence?

    My new MS nurse has advised i go to tribunal and is writing me a strong worded letter to send along with my request. I'm nervous but really pleased that she is supporting me and encouraging me.
    i didnt have this for my mandatory reconsideration as my nurse retired and this one has just started.

    I really really don't want to go to court and the form says you can tick that you don't want to so i will do that.

    any advice? do i write the letter the same as like i did for mandatory reconsideration?
    Does it take months to get to court? "
    I expect others might provide links to good info. There is vast amounts of good info and advice on the web and on these boards for others enquiring... as well as above already from the likes of Alice.

    It could take many weeks or some months... depending on how busy the tribunals service is where you are. That is frustrating but it does mean you'll probably have a bit of time to prepare and get any new evidence you think would help. I would make sure that your case for appeal is made with strong focus on the descriptors (statements of disability) that apply to you... and why they apply to you and what evidence supports this...etc.

    I would strongly advise in general electing to go to the appeal tribunal - this is because statistics show that when people are represented at tribunal in person they do far better and probably because key primary evidence is then presented to the tribunal panel who can get new facts as they see fit to help them get the decision right.

    You should not think of this as a court as such... it is a legal setting (in that they're going to try to apply benefit law to the details in your case) but it should feel less intimidating and more relaxed than a court... you're not on trial... you've done nothing wrong.. you're there to have them look at a benefit decision you think is wrong and they'll be interested to try to make a good decision. It is quite likely the DWP will not send anyone to attend and will simply allow their 'paperwork to do the talking'... DWP probably does not have the resources to send people to more than a small proportion of tribunals. There'll be a clerk (probably sat to the side) to deal with the administration of the tribunal and then the panel (probably sat in front of you (if you go)). The panel will have a judge... that'll be someone legally qualified... someone medically qualified such as a GP... and someone with a care/disability background. The panel will read the evidence and make a ruling but if you go along (or someone goes along to represent you) they'll also be able to get evidence directly from you by asking for more information and asking you to verify other. I would anticipate generally speaking the tribunal panel will seem interested in establishing the facts and getting the decision right... which is why many claimants at this stage do often get a more accurate and favourable outcome. The tribunal will either give decision that day (and possibly while you are at the tribunals building if you attend) or if not possible soon after and they'll send a copy of the decision to the DWP for their use as well as to you if not already provided.

    You may find in asking for appeal you are making a very similar case as for the reconsideration request.... especially if the reconsidered decision (which is the one you are appealing against) is the same or similar to the original decision you challenged. But focus on the criteria... and hopefully the help you are getting proves useful. If you do decide to attend tribunal then obviously prepare well by studying all the evidence in advance and thinking about how you'd describe your difficulties in relation to the relevant activities. As final point obviously have to remind of the small risk that the tribunal will take a decision that is less favourable to you than the decision you are challenging - in your case you have been awarded standard rates for both components I understand so there is some risk in asking for a new decision... but statistically speaking that risk is probably generally low... if your disabilities align with a higher award according to the descriptors (according to you and your MS nurse) then legal advice would probably on balance strongly support appealing.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 16-06-2017 at 12:53 PM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 16th Jun 17, 12:38 PM
    • 1,636 Posts
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    cantcope
    thank you.
    I didn't realise it would be so informal. I used to work at magistrates court and even working there i didnt like going into the court when i needed to.
    Perhaps i will go then.
    i have made sure ive kept to the descriptors when ive asked for reconsideration but they've just blatantly ignored what i've told them and come back with we decided you can do this... erm... how? i told you the opposite and so will my MS nurse!
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 16th Jun 17, 1:00 PM
    • 9,956 Posts
    • 18,405 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    thank you.
    I didn't realise it would be so informal. I used to work at magistrates court and even working there i didnt like going into the court when i needed to.
    Perhaps i will go then.
    i have made sure ive kept to the descriptors when ive asked for reconsideration but they've just blatantly ignored what i've told them and come back with we decided you can do this... erm... how? i told you the opposite and so will my MS nurse!
    Originally posted by cantcope
    Panels will vary due to the personalities involved... so there are no guarantees...I had a really bad experience of a DLA tribunal many years ago... but in all my reading of tribunal experiences I think I was incredibly unfortunate... people almost always describe events that are more professional and less stressful than say the face to face medical assessment.. and it is rare to hear claims such as 'they just didn't listen to me' which is otherwise very common with regards to the DWP (as in your case!) or the private medical contractor such as ATOS or Capita. Remember they've probably been in a fair few PIP tribunals... and they'll have seen assessment reports before and understand that sometimes they contain sound opinion and facts and sometimes they do not contain much that can be relied on. They're much more likely to take a broader look at the evidence and not consider any particular element as the 'word of god'.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • cantcope
    • By cantcope 16th Jun 17, 2:01 PM
    • 1,636 Posts
    • 1,225 Thanks
    cantcope
    I'm just happy that someone is finally listening and supporting me. thats worth gold to me.
    my eyes are like mirrors. They reflect whats going on around me rather than whats inside
    Original debt May 06 £16569,25th Feb 08 DEBT FREE

    Last bet : 26th October 2006
    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 16th Jun 17, 7:20 PM
    • 924 Posts
    • 248 Thanks
    dave030445
    i got the letter back and they have kept scores as they are. i'm going to speak with my new MS nurse at my appointment in fortnight and see if she can give me some written evidence for me to appeal. if not then i dont see the point as other than showing them things i cant do nothing is going to change... don't fancy a scene from ready steady cook in court to show them how i drop hot food, cut my fingers, burn my hands and arms etc...
    how do i prove im in constant pain when i walk? cry? wail?
    Originally posted by cantcope
    Did you send any further medical evidence when you asked for a MR?
    • tomtom256
    • By tomtom256 16th Jun 17, 8:39 PM
    • 802 Posts
    • 1,480 Thanks
    tomtom256
    my gp told them i cant walk more then 20 meters, they cant call him a liar now can they
    Originally posted by piefeet
    Of course they can, is your GP with you 24/7!
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