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    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 26th May 17, 1:09 PM
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    dave030445
    Atos Home Visit
    • #1
    • 26th May 17, 1:09 PM
    Atos Home Visit 26th May 17 at 1:09 PM
    Just had my Home f2f with Atos She was a lovely English Nurse she seemed to really understand how my conditions affects me. It seemed to go really well but as ive read on these forums it can all go very wrong. Have to wait and see. I put this post in benefits and tax credits instead of here so sorry for the duplicate posts if someone can remove the other one please
Page 2
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 10th Jun 17, 10:02 PM
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    poppy12345
    As you haven't actually had the decision yet, i think you should wait until you know what this is. I know mostly the DM goes with the report but it has been know for them to go against it. You would also need to get more evidence to support those extra points if needed. Anyway, Monday won't be long now and you'll be able to ring for that decision.
    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 10th Jun 17, 10:04 PM
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    dave030445
    I believe they changed the descriptors for mental health making it extremely difficult to get awarded more than 4 points for "planning and following a journey. If i'm wrong then i'm sure someone with more knowledge than me will reply.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    Oh ok thanks for that thats good to know
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 10th Jun 17, 10:07 PM
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    poppy12345
    If you have issues with your mental health did you state this on your PIP2 form?
    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 10th Jun 17, 10:09 PM
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    dave030445
    As you haven't actually had the decision yet, i think you should wait until you know what this is. I know mostly the DM goes with the report but it has been know for them to go against it. You would also need to get more evidence to support those extra points if needed. Anyway, Monday won't be long now and you'll be able to ring for that decision.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    Yes your are of course right I was just trying to be ready for my wife to phone up monday I have to do things when I feel ok
    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 10th Jun 17, 10:11 PM
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    dave030445
    If you have issues with your mental health did you state this on your PIP2 form?
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    I don't have any issues with mental health problems
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 10th Jun 17, 10:15 PM
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    poppy12345
    I don't have any issues with mental health problems
    Originally posted by dave030445
    Then i you won't score any points from "planning and following a journey" if you need extra points for Mobility the only way to get these is if you can't walk further than 20 metres. In a previous post you said you were trying to see where you could score those extra points. Then pointed out the planing and following a journing points. I'm sorry but now i'm confused because you say you dont have any mental health issues.
    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 10th Jun 17, 10:23 PM
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    dave030445
    Then i you won't score any points from "planning and following a journey" if you need extra points for Mobility the only way to get these is if you can't walk further than 20 metres. In a previous post you said you were trying to see where you could score those extra points. Then pointed out the planing and following a journing points. I'm sorry but now i'm confused because you say you dont have any mental health issues.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    Sorry I didn't realise that was for mental health. I was thinking I could score some points from the following a journey as if I was out and had one of my attacks I wouldn't be able to find my way home unless I had someone with me so thought I could use following a journey. But thanks for putting me straight
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 10th Jun 17, 10:27 PM
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    poppy12345
    Sorry I didn't realise that was for mental health. I was thinking I could score some points from the following a journey as if I was out and had one of my attacks I wouldn't be able to find my way home unless I had someone with me so thought I could use following a journey. But thanks for putting me straight
    Originally posted by dave030445
    You maybe able to but unless you wrote you have issues with that when you go out you won't be able to try to get extra points for it during an MR. You would be able to put in a change of circumstances at later date saying you've now got worse.
    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 10th Jun 17, 10:32 PM
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    dave030445
    You maybe able to but unless you wrote you have issues with that when you go out you won't be able to try to get extra points for it during an MR. You would be able to put in a change of circumstances at later date saying you've now got worse.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    I did state it in my form but didn't get any medical
    Evidence to back it up but I could get my doctor to write another letter to back it up would that be allowed at the MR stage
    • Sam Fallow
    • By Sam Fallow 10th Jun 17, 10:41 PM
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    Sam Fallow
    She really did give the option that she was a friend and she wanted to help. I do now get the impression that she was trying to get me to drop my guard. She kept saying oh poor you how do you cope that must me terrible to live with poor you.
    Originally posted by dave030445
    This /\/\/\/\ This is why I refer to them as the 'Smiling Assassin.'

    I always record the interviews, not to produce as evidence in any appeal but to remind myself of what was actually said and when. Just for my own peace of mind.
    I don't like morning people. Or mornings. Or people.
    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 11th Jun 17, 12:26 AM
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    dave030445
    This /\/\/\/\ This is why I refer to them as the 'Smiling Assassin.'

    I always record the interviews, not to produce as evidence in any appeal but to remind myself of what was actually said and when. Just for my own peace of mind.
    Originally posted by Sam Fallow
    Yes the name fits them perfectly. Good idea i will remember that for the next one.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 11th Jun 17, 7:09 AM
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    poppy12345
    You need permission to record the assessments. If you don't have this and they catch you they'll stop the assessment.
    • Prinzessilein
    • By Prinzessilein 11th Jun 17, 8:08 AM
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    Prinzessilein
    I believe they changed the descriptors for mental health making it extremely difficult to get awarded more than 4 points for "planning and following a journey. If i'm wrong then i'm sure someone with more knowledge than me will reply.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    This is correct in my understanding...and in my experience of a recent PiP home assessment.

    I cannot plan the route of a journey, I cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey, and on most occasions I cannot follow the route of a familiar journey without assistance.....HOWEVER, the reason for this is psychological distress - which for me would (and has on the past) result in severe distress for me, and for anyone near me as I can get a truly foul mouth when I am stressed (much of the time I am mute...when ueber stressed I can start to swear percussively, shouting out really vile stuff....it is linked to Tourettes)...and I also try to run from 'perceived' danger ignoring minor things like cars!...and I will physically hit out at myself or anyone near me if I feel stressed..... this is all 'stress-reated' so I score ZERO points for those descriptors.

    I was awarded 4 points for needing prompting on any journey (even though all the prompting in the world will not get me out of my flat on a 'bad' day)

    In addition, I was awarded 4 points for 'moving around'...can move more than 50m but no more than 200 m .

    I believe there are court cases underway to challenge the change in descriptors. I sincerely hope they are successful, for far too long mental health has been dismissed by successive governments.
    • Sam Fallow
    • By Sam Fallow 11th Jun 17, 11:15 AM
    • 801 Posts
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    Sam Fallow
    You need permission to record the assessments. If you don't have this and they catch you they'll stop the assessment.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    I know.

    Don't care.

    With the stress and anxiety involved in the assessment it's easy to doubt your own convictions later on.
    'Did I really say that?'
    'Did they really ask the question that way?' etc.

    It's easy to doubt your own sanity when the report comes back, so having an accurate record of the event, to bolster any appeal, is reassuring.

    I wish I had done it on the first assessment with the ex-GP who's report was full of inaccuracies, lies and contradictions.
    I don't like morning people. Or mornings. Or people.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 11th Jun 17, 1:19 PM
    • 1,477 Posts
    • 1,573 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    I know.

    Don't care.
    Originally posted by Sam Fallow
    A much better option to a secret recording (which as poppy says risks your claim) is to take a family member / friend / advocate along with you to the assessment and ask them to take notes of the PIP assessment.

    If the assessment is flawed, their evidence can be submitted to a tribunal panel. (A secret recording is very unlikely to be accepted as credible evidence by the Tribunal Service).

    If you can get medical evidence from your GP / CPN / other health professional which contradicts the assessors conclusions, then this together with the third party's evidence of a flawed assessment process, will go a long way to overturning the decision at a tribunal hearing.

    I can understand the anger, frustration, etc of having experienced bad assessments But the way to right these injustices is to use your appeal rights following the correct processes, putting together the strongest case you can.

    It is possible to officially record the assessment (perhaps because of memory issues):
    http://www.atoshealthcare.com/pip/faq_view/recording_my_consultation
    but a secret recording could cause your claim to fail. (And may also cause a tribunal panel to view you as a not having credibility as an appellant).
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 11-06-2017 at 1:26 PM.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 11th Jun 17, 1:26 PM
    • 28,354 Posts
    • 72,166 Thanks
    Mojisola
    A much better option to a secret recording (which as poppy says risks your claim) is to take a family member / friend / advocate along with you to the assessment and ask them to take notes of the PIP assessment.

    If the assessment is flawed, their evidence can be submitted to a tribunal panel.
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    I was present at an assessment my son had which was followed by a report full of lies. Even though there were two of us and one assessor, our challenge was ignored as just our word against hers and not proof.

    Get permission to record or ask for recording equipment to be provided (depending on which benefit you are claiming).
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 11th Jun 17, 1:49 PM
    • 1,477 Posts
    • 1,573 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    I was present at an assessment my son had which was followed by a report full of lies. Even though there were two of us and one assessor, our challenge was ignored as just our word against hers and not proof.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    At tribunal, the panel have to lay out in their statement of reasons why one set of evidence was preferred to another piece of evidence.
    If they fail in their duty to do this, an appeal to the Upper Tribunal on an error of law is likely to succeed.

    So, the key to a successful tribunal is to provide compelling evidence.
    1) You have your own medical evidence contradicting the ATOS assessors conclusion,
    2) You have 3rd party evidence of a flawed assessment,
    3) You have submitted a statement to the tribunal explaining how the relevant activities and points apply,
    4) Your PIP form is clear on how your condition affects your ability to perform the activities reliably, and clearly gets you to 8 (plus) points,
    5) Your own verbal evidence to the tribunal panel is consistent and outlines relevant examples / illustrations relating to the PIP descriptors:

    Then any first tier tribunal which overrode all of this evidence to conclude that the DWP assessment still stood, would very likely be subject to a successful Upper Tribunal appeal on an error of law.
    • Sam Fallow
    • By Sam Fallow 11th Jun 17, 7:30 PM
    • 801 Posts
    • 1,841 Thanks
    Sam Fallow
    A much better option to a secret recording (which as poppy says risks your claim) is to take a family member / friend / advocate along with you to the assessment and ask them to take notes of the PIP assessment.
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    We learnt our lesson after the first one and have a witness from my local carer's assoc. All our assessments have been home visits.

    I can understand the anger, frustration, etc of having experienced bad assessments But the way to right these injustices is to use your appeal rights following the correct processes, putting together the strongest case you can.
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    Went through all the processes of appeal after the first assessment and had to wait 18 months for a tribunal. During that wait we were broke and broken. My own mental health suffered greatly because of that debacle and anyone's memory is questionable after that length of time.
    I don't like morning people. Or mornings. Or people.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 11th Jun 17, 9:16 PM
    • 1,477 Posts
    • 1,573 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Went through all the processes of appeal after the first assessment and had to wait 18 months for a tribunal. During that wait we were broke and broken. My own mental health suffered greatly because of that debacle and anyone's memory is questionable after that length of time.
    Originally posted by Sam Fallow
    That's terrible.
    The introduction of PIP was an administrative disgrace. The government failed to put in place the correct infrastructure to ensure claims were dealt with promptly and accurately. Some claimants died before their claims were assessed, with the eventual proceeds credited to their estate.
    The Tribunal Service were overwhelmed with appeals from the many flawed assessments, and had to appoint new tribunal panels.
    IMO it was a scandal, but received very little press coverage. And even less concern from those elected to represent us.

    Now thankfully, appeal timescales are more sensible.
    The delay is now often down to poor administration by the DWP in responding to MR requests.

    I would completely agree with you that neither ESA or PIP are good at assessing mental health. Flawed ESA assessments (in particular) can drive people with poor mental health into a full blown crisis with all the cost that entails for individuals, families and society.
    • dave030445
    • By dave030445 12th Jun 17, 11:56 AM
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    dave030445
    Update: Wife phoned up this morning and As expected standard rate for both. So getting more letters from Dr and will send of for a MR. Sorted out the car can have it for another 6 months if needed if it goes to tribunal.
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