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  • FIRST POST
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 26th May 17, 7:30 AM
    • 415Posts
    • 398Thanks
    Sea Shell
    Who to have as PoA??
    • #1
    • 26th May 17, 7:30 AM
    Who to have as PoA?? 26th May 17 at 7:30 AM
    Hi all

    We have no children, we do have siblings, but they are of the 'same generation' as are our friends. We're not really 'that' close with our friends.

    Our nieces and nephews (is there a collective name for these??) are all still under 18, and as yet we obviously don't know if they are going to turn into mature, trustworthy adults!!

    It's widely advised that you should only appoint someone of a younger generation for PoA, to avoid having to re-do them as we age I guess, but who??

    Currently we know no-one under 30, never-mind someone who we are close enough to, to ask to be ours.

    What have you done in our position?
    What do you advise? Wait until the N/N's are older?? (we're only 45-55 bracket)

    We know we should get sorted....but it's a bit of a dilemma at the moment.

    **** Another Question ****
    If one has been making a regular cash gift of £££ each month for say over 3 years....is a PoA still able to carry on making these payments, even if the PoA themselves are the recipient??? Would they have had to get written permission from the Donor (before they lose competance) that they wish these payments to continue.

    Also if these payment have been ongoing for a while, and then the question arises for the need for Care, would they be considered Dep of Assets going forwards, if they continue to make these gifts??

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by Sea Shell; 07-06-2017 at 6:50 AM.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
Page 1
    • reeac
    • By reeac 26th May 17, 7:45 AM
    • 1,111 Posts
    • 446 Thanks
    reeac
    • #2
    • 26th May 17, 7:45 AM
    • #2
    • 26th May 17, 7:45 AM
    As you have suggested, wait 5-10 years and assess the nieces and nephews. You should have a good idea of their suitability by the time that they're in their 20s.
    • RADDERS
    • By RADDERS 26th May 17, 7:53 AM
    • 158 Posts
    • 144 Thanks
    RADDERS
    • #3
    • 26th May 17, 7:53 AM
    • #3
    • 26th May 17, 7:53 AM
    As it is pretty easy to do this yourself, I would be doing a POA with your partner as POA for each otheras things can happen when younger.
    For instance if one of you had a stroke or became incapacitated and had accounts in their own name them the other person would not be able to get access to any of the funds, they would have to go to the court of protection which could take time.
    We did ours last year and I think the cost was around £130 each we just did the finance one, but I think the cost could have come down since.
    You can then revisit it a few years when you have sussed out your nieces and nephews for suitability.
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 26th May 17, 8:22 AM
    • 5,019 Posts
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    Kynthia
    • #4
    • 26th May 17, 8:22 AM
    • #4
    • 26th May 17, 8:22 AM
    I'd do one for each other for now and see in a few years if you want to add another person for each of you.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 26th May 17, 10:02 AM
    • 415 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    • #5
    • 26th May 17, 10:02 AM
    • #5
    • 26th May 17, 10:02 AM
    No problem for either of us accessing funds in the short to medium term, as we have many sole/joint accounts and/or investments.

    Does this mean we don't really need them yet...and can wait till the N/N's are (much) older?

    As for health & wellbeing....is a spouse able to make those decisions if the other party has lost capacity, without PoA?
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 31st May 17, 7:00 AM
    • 415 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    • #6
    • 31st May 17, 7:00 AM
    • #6
    • 31st May 17, 7:00 AM
    Just another thought.....

    Would you be happy/confident to have someone as PoA, who may be in a very different financial situation, i.e. skint.

    Can you ever trust someone 100% with £000,000 of your assets, if they have PoA and are a bit short on their bills one month and decide to 'dib-in'. Could the temptation just prove too great, if they are struggling to put food on the table.

    How would they ever get found out???
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 31st May 17, 7:47 AM
    • 1,406 Posts
    • 821 Thanks
    hollie.weimeraner
    • #7
    • 31st May 17, 7:47 AM
    • #7
    • 31st May 17, 7:47 AM
    Have you made a will? If so who are you leaving the estate to? Personally if I'd made a will I would consider making the PoA in favour of the beneficiaries.
    If you have 2 or more PoA's then you can make it so that they can only do things jointly which would make it more difficult to misuse the funds.
    PoA' are now £95 as they reduced in price in April (just after I registered mine)
    • reeac
    • By reeac 31st May 17, 8:53 AM
    • 1,111 Posts
    • 446 Thanks
    reeac
    • #8
    • 31st May 17, 8:53 AM
    • #8
    • 31st May 17, 8:53 AM
    My wife and I always had joint ownership of all our assets but we had to depart from that simple scheme when we invested in ISAs as an ISA can only be held by an individual. I guess that in the event of one of you becoming incapacitated that only renders half of the ISAs inaccessible.
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 31st May 17, 9:10 AM
    • 5,019 Posts
    • 7,000 Thanks
    Kynthia
    • #9
    • 31st May 17, 9:10 AM
    • #9
    • 31st May 17, 9:10 AM
    No problem for either of us accessing funds in the short to medium term, as we have many sole/joint accounts and/or investments.

    Does this mean we don't really need them yet...and can wait till the N/N's are (much) older?

    As for health & wellbeing....is a spouse able to make those decisions if the other party has lost capacity, without PoA?
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    Why wait if you're going to be each other's poa at some point? Its a separate form and fee for each person you give poa to so it's no cheaper to wait and do others together. Having joint accounts does help in the short term if something incapacitated either if you. However if you have individual utility accounts, mobile phone accounts, pensions, ISAs, etc then they have no authority to talk to a spouse.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 31st May 17, 2:48 PM
    • 3,305 Posts
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    Malthusian
    Would you be happy/confident to have someone as PoA, who may be in a very different financial situation, i.e. skint.
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    I would. If they're skint that suggests they aren't a practiced fraudster - if they were a fraudster they wouldn't be skint.

    Slightly less glibly, it depends on what kind of skint we're talking about. I probably wouldn't give power of attorney to someone who'd been on benefits their whole life and spent every penny that came into their hands, but I would give it to someone of modest means who'd always lived within them.

    Can you ever trust someone 100% with £000,000 of your assets, if they have PoA and are a bit short on their bills one month and decide to 'dib-in'. Could the temptation just prove too great, if they are struggling to put food on the table.

    How would they ever get found out???
    If you appointed more than one attorney (e.g. two of your nieces/nephews) the other one would find out as soon as they checked your bank statements. The latest it could possibly come out was when you died and the beneficiaries enquired into where all your money had gone. It might come out earlier if their raiding of the bank account results in your care fees bouncing or similar. Whoever found out would alert the Court of Protection and they would step in. The dishonest attorney would go to prison.

    If you wanted to scam an elderly relative out of their savings, you wouldn't use a Power of Attorney. You would forge their signature or sign them up for online banking and use their login details. If anyone has suspicions you simply say that the relative gave you money of their own free will and challenge them to prove otherwise. Using a power of attorney on the other hand leaves an obvious paper trail. Attorneys cannot make gifts (unless previously authorised), least of all to themselves, so if you use a power of attorney to transfer funds into your own bank account you are signing your own arrest warrant.

    There is very little risk involved in granting a power of attorney as long as you exercise the tiniest amount of discretion in whom you give it to. You are no more vulnerable to being defrauded than you would be anyway as a person who has lost mental capacity.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 31st May 17, 4:14 PM
    • 415 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    Lots to think about. Thanks for all your replies.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 31st May 17, 4:21 PM
    • 415 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    Why wait if you're going to be each other's poa at some point? Its a separate form and fee for each person you give poa to so it's no cheaper to wait and do others together. Having joint accounts does help in the short term if something incapacitated either if you. However if you have individual utility accounts, mobile phone accounts, pensions, ISAs, etc then they have no authority to talk to a spouse.
    Originally posted by Kynthia
    Is this right, it's per attourney? I thought you had to have decided on who you were going to have 'up front' and get them all on one document. Does that mean if we did each other now, those would remain valid if we then wanted to add extra persons later on?
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 7th Jun 17, 6:51 AM
    • 415 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    **** Another Question ****
    If one has been making a regular cash gift of £££ each month for say over 3 years....is a PoA still able to carry on making these payments, even if the PoA themselves are the recipient??? Would they have had to get written permission from the Donor (before they lose competance) that they wish these payments to continue.

    Also if these payment have been ongoing for a while, and then the question arises for the need for Care, would they be considered Dep of Assets going forwards, if they continue to make these gifts??

    Thanks again.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 7th Jun 17, 6:53 AM
    • 415 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    I should add that currently no IHT issues to contend with.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • Clifford_Pope
    • By Clifford_Pope 7th Jun 17, 8:50 AM
    • 3,385 Posts
    • 3,470 Thanks
    Clifford_Pope
    **** Another Question ****
    Would they have had to get written permission from the Donor (before they lose competance) that they wish these payments to continue.
    .
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    Anything is possible, but it needs to be recorded in the Preferences section of a duly stamped and registered LPA.
    Depending on the scale of the payments, a greater degree of prior authorisation would be desirable to forstal possible challenge.
    For example, I recently asked the OPG several specific hypothetical questions concerning my attorney's authority to continue to take certain actions that I currently do;
    1) Managing a family trust as a trustee. The trustees have widespread powers to act for all beneficiaries, not just the person setting up the LPA
    2) Making substantial gifts to three children for house deposits
    3) Managing self-invested pension assets and draw-down income.
    4) Managing other assets in the light of any future circumstances or changes in taxation.

    I was told these are all acceptable uses of a LPA, if specified in the Preferences, and they have now been approved and the LPA registered.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 7th Jun 17, 12:38 PM
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    Malthusian
    Also if these payment have been ongoing for a while, and then the question arises for the need for Care, would they be considered Dep of Assets going forwards, if they continue to make these gifts??
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    Impossible to be definitive, but it sounds extremely unlikely. Especially if you can show that the gifts started before there was any anticipation of requiring care, and did not reduce your standard of living.
    • Blue Max
    • By Blue Max 13th Jul 17, 7:42 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Blue Max
    Why wait if you're going to be each other's poa at some point? Its a separate form and fee for each person you give poa to so it's no cheaper to wait and do others together. Having joint accounts does help in the short term if something incapacitated either if you. However if you have individual utility accounts, mobile phone accounts, pensions, ISAs, etc then they have no authority to talk to a spouse.
    Originally posted by Kynthia
    With many companies you can arrange for a second person to be allowed to deal on your behalf. For example I tried to pay an insurance premium recently but was told I couldn't because of the data protection act (rubbish as I was giving them the information they didn't need tell me anything) and had to speak to the account holder. They did and then realised why I was dealing and paying. I have POA so could have set it up that way but I simply asked if I could be given authority to deal. Not a problem - my name is now on their records though I will probably have to tell them to look each renewal date. I've done similar with mobile phones, landlines and gas & electric bills each time just needing the account holder to confirm I can deal on their behalf. Obviously we've been asked security questions and they have my proof of id via the credit card payments but it's much easier than sending the POA off to them.
    This works well for paying utility bills etc. but obviously banking needs POA
    • Linton
    • By Linton 13th Jul 17, 8:31 PM
    • 8,495 Posts
    • 8,438 Thanks
    Linton
    **** Another Question ****
    If one has been making a regular cash gift of £££ each month for say over 3 years....is a PoA still able to carry on making these payments, even if the PoA themselves are the recipient??? Would they have had to get written permission from the Donor (before they lose competance) that they wish these payments to continue.

    Also if these payment have been ongoing for a while, and then the question arises for the need for Care, would they be considered Dep of Assets going forwards, if they continue to make these gifts??

    Thanks again.
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    I have been faced with this one where regular payments to family members were made by standing orders set up by the donor.. The way I looked at it is that whenever an Attorney changes anything they should ask themselves whether making the change is in the interests of the donor. Where the donor has sufficient wealth/income to deal with any care needs then there is no benefit for the donor in stopping a pre-existing payment schedule. Dep of Assets would only come in if the donor became relatively poor and likely to be dependent on Council support. Under those crcumstances I would say that the Attorney should have stopped the payments well before the issue arose.
    • colsten
    • By colsten 13th Jul 17, 8:50 PM
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    colsten
    What do people do who don't have relatives? Or none that live close by, or none they trust? Or none who want to take on the PoA?
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 14th Jul 17, 12:36 PM
    • 3,305 Posts
    • 5,025 Thanks
    Malthusian
    What do people do who don't have relatives? Or none that live close by, or none they trust? Or none who want to take on the PoA?
    Originally posted by colsten
    1) Appoint trusted friends
    2) In the absence of any friends, appoint a solicitor (which is expensive)
    3) Hope the Court of Protection steps in (which is slow)
    4) Ignore the problem and struggle on as best you can and hope you don't get defrauded or worse during a mental lapse
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