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  • FIRST POST
    • AG47
    • By AG47 22nd May 17, 6:39 PM
    • 614Posts
    • 147Thanks
    AG47
    Buy ethereum uk
    • #1
    • 22nd May 17, 6:39 PM
    Buy ethereum uk 22nd May 17 at 6:39 PM
    Where is the best place to buy ethereum in the uk?

    Then to get it out into an offline wallet please?
    Nothing has been fixed since 2008, it was just pushed into the future
Page 3
    • fwor
    • By fwor 17th Jun 17, 9:14 PM
    • 5,885 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    fwor
    How can any of these crypto currencies be both good investments and viable currencies? If they arent viable currencies what real value do they have?
    Originally posted by Linton
    Exactly. Imagine being a retailer, quoting prices on your UK website in both Sterling and (say) Bitcoin, while the exchange rate between the two is lurching about all over the place. I can't really see that happening while the crypto-currencies lack any stability.

    A good example would be where a retailer sells something paid for in Bitcoin and then 10 minutes later yet another fraud is revealed within Bitcoin's infrastructure and the exchange rate plummets - and suddenly the retailer is out of pocket.

    Either the retailer has to become a currency exchange rate speculator, or he has to pay someone to take that risk for him - and that is not likely to be cheap...
    • realdannys
    • By realdannys 17th Jun 17, 9:15 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    realdannys
    This is just rubbish. A shareholder is a part owner of the company. Are you claiming that Apple for example has no value? Sure it could go bust but then any asset is capable of being lost, going out out of fashion or being outmoded by technology but at least with shares there is a real underlying asset. One cant say that about ethereum or bitcoin. If it, in its current form, doesnt turn into a viable currency it is merely a row of bits of no more value than any other row of bits.
    Originally posted by Linton
    So? There's no point in being a part owner in a company that doesn't exist anymore is there? No Apple isn't going to go bust, but no it isn't going to make you rich investing in it either more - hence it being a longer term low risk investment.

    Bitcoin has been a 'viable currency" for years - people do millions of pounds worth of business in it daily. It's a criminals number one choice for a start!

    But even if it was just 1's and 0's and had no use what so ever, it still makes your point wrong. Any investment if the asset becomes worthless is worthless. It doesn't matter if it's spoilt wine, a house or a precious metal.

    In many case a physical investment could end up putting you in debt and costing you money. A house that ends up failing building regs could be an investment that costs you thousands - all you can lose with a cryptocurrency is the money you transfer into it.
    • realdannys
    • By realdannys 17th Jun 17, 9:18 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    realdannys
    Exactly. Imagine being a retailer, quoting prices on your UK website in both Sterling and (say) Bitcoin, while the exchange rate between the two is lurching about all over the place. I can't really see that happening while the crypto-currencies lack any stability.

    A good example would be where a retailer sells something paid for in Bitcoin and then 10 minutes later yet another fraud is revealed within Bitcoin's infrastructure and the exchange rate plummets - and suddenly the retailer is out of pocket.

    Either the retailer has to become a currency exchange rate speculator, or he has to pay someone to take that risk for him - and that is not likely to be cheap...
    Originally posted by fwor
    Or the retailer just immediately transfer it into the currency they want at purchase. Thus getting the £, $ or whatever amount they require. Which is what Amazon do. You buy things in their original currency amount and pay whatever the Bitcoin eqiv is at that moment in time.

    Granted as more places accept it and more users use it - that volatility does level out somewhat. Bitcoin had remained about $400 since 2014 until this last month.

    But again, all this stuff has already been answered by big financial websites with far more knowledge than me.
    • Linton
    • By Linton 17th Jun 17, 9:32 PM
    • 8,493 Posts
    • 8,436 Thanks
    Linton
    There's a very strange suspicion of Cryptocurrencies on here. As if they were just invented yesterday. This is quite old technology now - Asia has invested billions into it. It's the mining side you should be suspicious of (or rather the mining rigs) not the actual currencies.
    Originally posted by realdannys
    Crypto currency technology may become important in the future. But by buying bitcoin or ethereum or any of the other perhaps dozens of CCs that may arise in the next few years you arent investing in the technology, you are betting that your particular chosen crypto currency will become predominant.

    There are many examples in the say the past 50 years of early implementations of technology and the implementors diappearing pretty quickly once the serious commercial interests get involved.
    • parking_question_chap
    • By parking_question_chap 17th Jun 17, 9:40 PM
    • 1,408 Posts
    • 1,234 Thanks
    parking_question_chap
    Haha what?? Thats a guarantee if the bank goes bust, not if you lose your money investing in bad shares!
    You've just shown your don't understand what either ISA FSCS is, nor what a Cryptocurrency is - being decentralised there is no need for compensation as there is no main bank holding any asset to go bust.
    Originally posted by realdannys
    Yes, I do realise that, it was the point I was making.

    I will reword it in a way you might be able to comprehend.

    If the company/website you have purchased/stored crypto with ceases trading, or just goes offline not to return, who is going to reimburse you?
    Last edited by parking_question_chap; 17-06-2017 at 9:59 PM. Reason: spelling
    • Linton
    • By Linton 17th Jun 17, 9:51 PM
    • 8,493 Posts
    • 8,436 Thanks
    Linton
    So? There's no point in being a part owner in a company that doesn't exist anymore is there? No Apple isn't going to go bust, but no it isn't going to make you rich investing in it either more - hence it being a longer term low risk investment.

    .......
    Originally posted by realdannys
    The benefit of holding shares is that the companies you part own generate profits. You can benefit from the profits either directly by the company paying you dividends or indirectly by the company reinvesting the money to make greater profits in the future. Or in the case of Apple by the company buying its own shares on the market forcing prices up. So yes any company may disappear at some stage in the future but in the meantime you gain real fimancial benefits. That is why shares have a real value - they provide a good chance of future income.

    What benefit would I gain from holding bitcoins?
    Last edited by Linton; 17-06-2017 at 9:54 PM.
    • fwor
    • By fwor 17th Jun 17, 9:59 PM
    • 5,885 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    fwor
    There's a very strange suspicion of Cryptocurrencies on here. As if they were just invented yesterday. This is quite old technology now - Asia has invested billions into it. It's the mining side you should be suspicious of (or rather the mining rigs) not the actual currencies.
    Originally posted by realdannys
    You need to understand that the technology is almost irrelevant.

    The technology is just a tool that anyone could use. I could run my own crypto currency from a computer in my bedroom, but just because it uses the technology, that does not mean it would be worth anything.

    It's the trust components that are critical. They need to be completely right, auditable and transparent, and that's where all of the crypto-currencies fail. If there are shadowy figures behind the running of the exchanges, and the verification of mining activities, and if there is no auditing process that can be independently verified then you will not create trust, and it will not be adopted on a wide scale.

    You only have to look at the Mt.Gox and other similar incidents to realise that if any of the many processes behind a currency is flawed, the whole currency is undermined. Typically these incidents are process failures (wrong keys used, proper signing procedures not adopted, etc.) and not anything wrong with the technology as such. But that doesn't help - technology flaws are often easy to spot and fix, while procedural issues generally are not. It's where real people get involved that the mistakes and/or fraud happen.
    • markj113
    • By markj113 17th Jun 17, 11:18 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 89 Thanks
    markj113
    You need to understand that the technology is almost irrelevant.

    The technology is just a tool that anyone could use. I could run my own crypto currency from a computer in my bedroom, but just because it uses the technology, that does not mean it would be worth anything.

    It's the trust components that are critical. They need to be completely right, auditable and transparent, and that's where all of the crypto-currencies fail. If there are shadowy figures behind the running of the exchanges, and the verification of mining activities, and if there is no auditing process that can be independently verified then you will not create trust, and it will not be adopted on a wide scale.

    You only have to look at the Mt.Gox and other similar incidents to realise that if any of the many processes behind a currency is flawed, the whole currency is undermined. Typically these incidents are process failures (wrong keys used, proper signing procedures not adopted, etc.) and not anything wrong with the technology as such. But that doesn't help - technology flaws are often easy to spot and fix, while procedural issues generally are not. It's where real people get involved that the mistakes and/or fraud happen.
    Originally posted by fwor
    Apply the above criteria to mainstream banks, do they pass the test?
    • fwor
    • By fwor 17th Jun 17, 11:46 PM
    • 5,885 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    fwor
    Apply the above criteria to mainstream banks, do they pass the test?
    Originally posted by markj113
    Does retail banking in the UK have several centuries of experience of establishing procedures, independent regulatory bodies, government oversight, compensatory schemes, etc.?

    Is conventional banking perfect? Of course not - but it has a mass of controls and collective ways of working (in that all UK banks collaborate on security issues) that have been designed specifically at mitigating or compensating for fraud. Do any of the crypto currencies have that?
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 18th Jun 17, 12:37 AM
    • 2,458 Posts
    • 2,213 Thanks
    JohnRo
    Does retail banking in the UK have several centuries of experience of establishing procedures, independent regulatory bodies, government oversight, compensatory schemes, etc.?
    Originally posted by fwor
    Nope.

    Is conventional banking perfect? Of course not - but it has a mass of controls and collective ways of working (in that all UK banks collaborate on security issues) that have been designed specifically at mitigating or compensating for fraud. Do any of the crypto currencies have that?
    Originally posted by fwor
    They don't need it, they're not a centrally controlled and manipulated fraud on the population of citizens forced to use them.
    'We don't need to be smarter than the rest; we need to be more disciplined than the rest.' - WB
    • fwor
    • By fwor 18th Jun 17, 1:38 AM
    • 5,885 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    fwor
    If we put aside the value (or otherwise) as an investment and stick with straight utility as a currency, the most damning thing about crypto currencies is that, for the entire time that, for example, Bitcoin has existed, I have never had any reason to think "I wish I had some Bitcoin now".

    It simply does not do anything for me that I can't do with any conventional currency.

    And the fact that the only big use at the moment for crypto currencies appears to be for illicit/illegal transactions just makes matters worse - because, while that remains true, using it as a currency is likely to attract attention and suspicion.

    If it has so little use to me as a means of buying things, why would I even think about buying it as an investment?
    • economic
    • By economic 18th Jun 17, 7:27 AM
    • 1,882 Posts
    • 1,029 Thanks
    economic
    Bitcoin is purely a speculative play. Nothing else
    • parking_question_chap
    • By parking_question_chap 18th Jun 17, 9:48 AM
    • 1,408 Posts
    • 1,234 Thanks
    parking_question_chap
    Apply the above criteria to mainstream banks, do they pass the test?
    Originally posted by markj113
    Whilst not perfect, banks are much more tightly and transparently regulated than crypto.

    Money in the bank is guaranteed up to £85k.

    Good luck getting your crypto "currency" converted back if it all goes wrong.

    Its a bubble with no intrinsic value. Yes you might make money on it as more and more people hope to make a quick buck. But the people holding it when the music stops are going to be hit very hard. In terms of an "investment" Its basicially just the same as playing roulette in Vegas, just less fun.
    • markj113
    • By markj113 18th Jun 17, 1:13 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 89 Thanks
    markj113
    The whole "Bitcoin is used for illicit/illegal transactions" is nonsense. Is it any worse than the USD for example. Every currency and store of wealth is used for illicit/illegal transactions.

    The point of crypto is that there is no middle man, you dont need to trust your wealth to a 3rd party and you are fully in control. Next generation coins such as Komodo even have a trustless exchange built directly in to the wallet so you never have to trust anyone with your money.

    Look at the Cyprus bank deposit hair cuts during 2012/13, up to 48% of your money taken without consent, the bail in laws introduced in the UK in 2015. Despite all the transparency and regulations are the banks doing a great job with your money?

    Too big to fail and next time it will be the customers picking up the bill not the taxpayers.
    Last edited by markj113; 18-06-2017 at 1:15 PM.
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 18th Jun 17, 2:09 PM
    • 2,458 Posts
    • 2,213 Thanks
    JohnRo
    Fiat banking transparency and regulation is a mirage. Many promised post GFC reforms and fixes have been neutered or blocked by the banks. Compensation and guarantee schemes are all at everyone else's or 'the future's' expense, confidence tricks. Shadow banking oversight is hopelessly lax and that's where systemic failures are lurking.

    As for crypto, there are significant technical hurdles and barriers to overcome. I'm confident they will be in time, that said probably not in mine though.

    Interoperability, linking or merging of crypo ledgers and features are in their infancy.

    Democratic free market currency is on the way whether the money printing masters, vested interests and flat Earthers like it or not. How much traction what currently exists, eventually gains, is anyone's guess at this stage. I certainly don't see it as a traditional investment in the way many who start these threads seem to.

    The money printers only realistic option, with many democratic countries now already accepting the inevitable, is to either start pulling strings and shut it all down, which is already close to impossible and will expose them for what they really are, or to adopt and then seek to somehow steal back central control and retain their access and manipulation privileges.
    'We don't need to be smarter than the rest; we need to be more disciplined than the rest.' - WB
    • fwor
    • By fwor 18th Jun 17, 2:37 PM
    • 5,885 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    fwor
    I certainly don't see it as a traditional investment
    Originally posted by JohnRo
    Ok, but do you see it as an investment of any type and, if so, why do you think that its value must go up rather than down?

    If you don't see a fundamental reason for the price to go up over time, it's not any sort of investment at all, is it?
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 18th Jun 17, 3:05 PM
    • 2,458 Posts
    • 2,213 Thanks
    JohnRo
    I assume you're well aware currency is simply an accepted token of exchange for goods and services, derived from an abstract called money, which in the case of fiat is backed by nothing but the threat of government violence.

    What you're buying into with crypto is a piece of an electronic financial infrastructure framework, all of the technical and conceptual work being done on it, all that it has already achieved, all of it's potential, future development, direction and as yet unexplored uses.

    What it offers currently is integrity, equity and unfettered access, what you're buying into is that in future that will continue to evolve, gain traction and compete with the traditional money printing fraud, currently living on borrowed time.

    It is a very high risk proposition in terms of a return on capital but by investing or buying in or by speculating or whatever you're choosing to do, you do so freely without interference and with all the associated risks, and that is the direction the whole concept was and is intending to travel.
    'We don't need to be smarter than the rest; we need to be more disciplined than the rest.' - WB
    • fwor
    • By fwor 18th Jun 17, 8:50 PM
    • 5,885 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    fwor
    I guess the short version of that is that you don't know whether it will go up in value or not?
    • markj113
    • By markj113 18th Jun 17, 9:13 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 89 Thanks
    markj113
    I guess the short version of that is that you don't know whether it will go up in value or not?
    Originally posted by fwor
    Doesnt that apply to every other investment?

    The only sure thing is that through inflation and QE your fiat is worth less year on year without fail.
    • fwor
    • By fwor 18th Jun 17, 10:15 PM
    • 5,885 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    fwor
    Doesnt that apply to every other investment?
    Originally posted by markj113
    Why would you invest in something if you did not believe that the trend in value would be upward?

    As I've already said, I invest in company shares because the company's employees are working away on my behalf (and of course for their own benefit) to make their company a success. The fruits of those labours come my way in the form of the company dividend and, possibly, an increase in share price if their performance is such that more people want to buy than to sell.

    I don't invest in other currencies, because I have no reason to think that - for example - the Euro will outperform Sterling in the longer term. It may of course do that, but I don't have any evidence to say whether it will or not.

    In the case of Bitcoin (or Ethereum or whatever) a good analogy might be the idea of buying water as a means of investing in the water industry, rather than investing in one of the companies that run the water supply infrastructure.
    Last edited by fwor; 18-06-2017 at 10:17 PM.
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