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  • FIRST POST
    • DJBenson
    • By DJBenson 19th May 17, 8:59 AM
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    DJBenson
    Data Protection Query: Taking Photos of Kids
    • #1
    • 19th May 17, 8:59 AM
    Data Protection Query: Taking Photos of Kids 19th May 17 at 8:59 AM
    A situation has arisen and I wanted to dig a little deeper into the social and legal implications from you good people.

    My daughter attends a ballet class aimed at very young children (less than 4) and a debate has kicked off about the taking and sharing of photographs in the class, especially considering (due to the nature of the activity) the children are wearing relatively revealing clothing.

    A parent has taken a video of their child and inadvertently captured other children in the video. They have then shared the video to social media.

    From what I can gather, the above is fine (the law allows for the taking of photographs in public places for personal use - sharing to social media may be pushing the boundaries of "personal use" but lets say that this is acceptable).

    The debate is more around the ballet company sharing the video to their timeline. If a school or other organisation wants to use a photo or video of children, they generally need to get the consent of every parent whose child features in the video, but in this instance, they are not the authors of said video so do not feel they need consent.

    The question is, even thought they are not the authors, they are using the video for promotional purposes and subsequently removing the "personal use" element from the original video, so where does that leave the parents from a data protection perspective.

    If there are any lawyers or childcare professionals in the house, I'd be very keen to get your views.

    Over to the floor - don't hold back
Page 1
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 19th May 17, 9:08 AM
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    silvercar
    • #2
    • 19th May 17, 9:08 AM
    • #2
    • 19th May 17, 9:08 AM
    From what I can gather, the above is fine (the law allows for the taking of photographs in public places for personal use - sharing to social media may be pushing the boundaries of "personal use" but lets say that this is acceptable).
    Sharing to social media would be "publishing" unless the privacy was extremely tight. Given that Facebook would allow "friends" of anyone tagged in the video to view, I wouldn't automatically consider that private.

    The question is, even thought they are not the authors, they are using the video for promotional purposes and subsequently removing the "personal use" element from the original video, so where does that leave the parents from a data protection perspective.
    Totally. Once the video is used for promotional purposes it is not personal. Do the company require or ask parents to sign a consent form when they join? I am very surprised that they haven't secured written consent from a parent of everyone in the video before publishing.
    • Auntie-Dolly
    • By Auntie-Dolly 19th May 17, 9:10 AM
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    Auntie-Dolly
    • #3
    • 19th May 17, 9:10 AM
    • #3
    • 19th May 17, 9:10 AM
    Is a picture of someone 'data'? I'm assuming the children aren't named.
    • TonyMMM
    • By TonyMMM 19th May 17, 9:13 AM
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    TonyMMM
    • #4
    • 19th May 17, 9:13 AM
    • #4
    • 19th May 17, 9:13 AM
    Is a picture of someone 'data'? I'm assuming the children aren't named.
    Originally posted by Auntie-Dolly
    No (subject to a few exceptions)

    There is no law that governs this - "data protection" is often wrongly quoted as an excuse for preventing similar things, but ultimately it comes down to the policies of the ballet school and common sense of the parents.

    Regarding your comments, it would depend on whether posting a link to another person's video is "official use" or "commercial purposes". Whatever the DPA says, if other parents object or have not consented to such use the ballet school should certainly not be using the video themselves and be speaking to the parent concerned and maybe issuing/confirming some rules to all parents.

    Do the school have a policy on photos/videos that parents are given when children join .... if not, they probably should.

    Once posted, nothing on the internet should ever be considered private (whatever settings are used) nor can it ever be deleted.
    Last edited by TonyMMM; 19-05-2017 at 9:24 AM.
    • DJBenson
    • By DJBenson 19th May 17, 9:18 AM
    • 402 Posts
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    DJBenson
    • #5
    • 19th May 17, 9:18 AM
    • #5
    • 19th May 17, 9:18 AM
    Sharing to social media would be "publishing" unless the privacy was extremely tight. Given that Facebook would allow "friends" of anyone tagged in the video to view, I wouldn't automatically consider that private.
    Originally posted by silvercar
    I've just double-checked the post and the original post is "Public" so that is directly in breach of the data protection rules as I understand it.

    Totally. Once the video is used for promotional purposes it is not personal. Do the company require or ask parents to sign a consent form when they join? I am very surprised that they haven't secured written consent from a parent of everyone in the video before publishing.
    Originally posted by silvercar
    The email from their head office says;

    To confirm where things stand with things like this - if a member of our staff is taking photographs or film in class, permission must be granted by all parents signing our model release form, which is something we do and have done in the past but it is very rare and you would receive plenty of notice before anything like this was to happen in your class.

    However, there are no laws preventing somebody (i.e a parent) from taking pictures of children in public places, specifically there are no laws preventing them from taking pictures of their child and other children surrounding them at a sports day, school play, babyballet class or otherwise.
    by Email response
    I think they are playing down the law around what can and cannot be done - there isn't a blanket "anybody can take photos in public" law as far as I can tell - what their is is a "personal use" clause in the law and by making the post "public" on social media, and then a commercial entity using that post for promotional purposes, I believe they have invalidated that clause?
    • DJBenson
    • By DJBenson 19th May 17, 9:25 AM
    • 402 Posts
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    DJBenson
    • #6
    • 19th May 17, 9:25 AM
    • #6
    • 19th May 17, 9:25 AM
    This page has a lot of info around which parts of various laws can be interpreted as being relevant - interestingly it could be interpreted that by stopping a parent from photographing/filming their own child might actually be a breach of their rights.

    http://childprotectionresource.online/category/taking-photographs-of-children/

    The Data Protection Act does not apply to photographs taken for purely personal reasons, for example by parents or grandparents at sports days or school plays (a photo album is fine but there might be a question mark over whether or not a photo published on a Facebook timeline with no privacy settings could be ‘purely personal’)
    by childprotectionresource.online
    Last edited by DJBenson; 19-05-2017 at 9:31 AM.
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 19th May 17, 9:52 AM
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    onomatopoeia99
    • #7
    • 19th May 17, 9:52 AM
    • #7
    • 19th May 17, 9:52 AM
    This page has a lot of info around which parts of various laws can be interpreted as being relevant - interestingly it could be interpreted that by stopping a parent from photographing/filming their own child might actually be a breach of their rights.

    http://childprotectionresource.online/category/taking-photographs-of-children/
    Originally posted by DJBenson
    Surprisingly balanced and well-researched piece that dispels a lot of myths (i.e. stuff that people make up as an excuse when they don't actually know the law).
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 19th May 17, 10:00 AM
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    Malthusian
    • #8
    • 19th May 17, 10:00 AM
    • #8
    • 19th May 17, 10:00 AM
    I think they are playing down the law around what can and cannot be done - there isn't a blanket "anybody can take photos in public" law as far as I can tell
    This isn't France, in this country what is not forbidden is permitted, not the other way round.

    The law that influences most behaviour on Facebook is "it is easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission". If you ask the ballet company to delete the post (or the parent to delete the original video, or set it to friends-only) they probably will.

    The legal implications are: Have they committed a criminal offence - no. Are you entitled to damages - almost certainly not. That leaves the social implications.

    especially considering (due to the nature of the activity) the children are wearing relatively revealing clothing.
    Revealing what? They're 4. If you're worried about what perverts might get off on, you're wasting your mental energy. They're perverts, what gets them off is completely random - ordinary children's clothing, cartoon characters, chair legs, talking about plimsolls on MSE. Changing your behaviour because you don't want to do anything that might arouse a pervert - without you or your children being affected or even aware - is a mental black hole from which there is no escape.
    Last edited by Malthusian; 19-05-2017 at 10:08 AM.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 19th May 17, 10:58 AM
    • 13,462 Posts
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    Guest101
    • #9
    • 19th May 17, 10:58 AM
    • #9
    • 19th May 17, 10:58 AM
    A situation has arisen and I wanted to dig a little deeper into the social and legal implications from you good people.

    My daughter attends a ballet class aimed at very young children (less than 4) and a debate has kicked off about the taking and sharing of photographs in the class, especially considering (due to the nature of the activity) the children are wearing relatively revealing clothing. - really? I'd suggest if it's more revealing than they'd wear on a public beach - stop taking them to the class!

    A parent has taken a video of their child and inadvertently captured other children in the video. They have then shared the video to social media. - There is legally no implication to this.

    From what I can gather, the above is fine (the law allows for the taking of photographs in public places for personal use - sharing to social media may be pushing the boundaries of "personal use" but lets say that this is acceptable). - It's fine. Personal means, non commercial. Though it's fine to take pictures of anyone in public for commercial use too, just has some implications where the person is the subject of the photo/video.

    The debate is more around the ballet company sharing the video to their timeline. - they need to have set up a policy for both social media and safeguarding. If a school or other organisation wants to use a photo or video of children, they generally need to get the consent of every parent whose child features in the video, - sort of. Most places will have membership conditions and this would typically be part of it. Except for safeguarding issues. but in this instance, they are not the authors of said video so do not feel they need consent. - Depends on what the T&Cs say, basically. Its not criminal at any rate.

    The question is, even thought they are not the authors, they are using the video for promotional purposes and subsequently removing the "personal use" element from the original video, so where does that leave the parents from a data protection perspective. - This is not, and never has been, a data protection issue. Refer to the T&Cs of membership.

    If there are any lawyers or childcare professionals in the house, I'd be very keen to get your views.

    Over to the floor - don't hold back
    Originally posted by DJBenson


    It's impossible to give accurate advice without knowing what you agreed to when you signed up.
    • DJBenson
    • By DJBenson 19th May 17, 11:12 AM
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    DJBenson
    I think they are playing down the law around what can and cannot be done - there isn't a blanket "anybody can take photos in public" law as far as I can tell
    Really badly worded on reflection.

    If you ask the ballet company to delete the post (or the parent to delete the original video, or set it to friends-only) they probably will.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    They have refused stating they are not breaking the law which it appears they are not.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 19th May 17, 11:14 AM
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    Guest101
    Really badly worded on reflection.



    They have refused stating they are not breaking the law which it appears they are not.
    Originally posted by DJBenson


    They probably aren't. So you do what consumers do, vote with your feet.
    • DJBenson
    • By DJBenson 19th May 17, 11:26 AM
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    DJBenson
    They probably aren't. So you do what consumers do, vote with your feet.
    Originally posted by Guest101
    I can't be alone in thinking "probably", "perhaps", "likely" are a bit too woolly when it comes to the protection of children?

    I did say I was also interested in the social side of the argument - whether or not they are acting lawfully, if a customer raises concerns about a video of young children being shared openly on social media, I expect said company to react a bit more consciously than saying "we aren't doing anything wrong so tough" but as you rightly say, the easiest thing is to vote with your feet.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 19th May 17, 11:38 AM
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    Guest101
    I can't be alone in thinking "probably", "perhaps", "likely" are a bit too woolly when it comes to the protection of children?

    I did say I was also interested in the social side of the argument - whether or not they are acting lawfully, if a customer raises concerns about a video of young children being shared openly on social media, I expect said company to react a bit more consciously than saying "we aren't doing anything wrong so tough" but as you rightly say, the easiest thing is to vote with your feet.
    Originally posted by DJBenson
    Sorry i'll clarify.


    There are not breaking any criminal laws as far as I can see.


    There may be civil implications (but that's based upon your contract, which as I said I cant comment on because I don't have a copy)


    Safeguarding rules do exist, but unless a child is subject to safeguarding interventions it's not relevant. (you haven't said if they are) - hence probably.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 19th May 17, 12:00 PM
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    Malthusian
    I can't be alone in thinking "probably", "perhaps", "likely" are a bit too woolly when it comes to the protection of children?
    Originally posted by DJBenson
    Leaving the Lovejoyism aside, that's no problem. They certainly aren't breaking the law. (Subject to the caveats that Guest101 mentioned but it sounds unlikely they are relevant.)

    They have refused stating they are not breaking the law which it appears they are not.
    Have you asked the parent who posted it originally whether they would mind taking it down, or setting it so only friends (not friends of friends) can see it? If it is deleted, and the ballet school has "shared" the post, then it will be deleted on the ballet school's page as well - the post will show a dead link.

    If the ballet school downloaded the video and then re-uploaded it, then you are stuck if they won't agree to remove it, but that is very unlikely and takes a bit of time whereas sharing takes a couple of clicks.

    I remember a story in the local paper a year or so ago about a dance school's teacher complaining that dirty old men were walking down the street at the time that dance classes were ending, so they could brush past the young girls walking from the door to their parents' cars in their leotards. The widespread reaction in the comments was ridicule. (I haven't been able to find the story, so either I have made it up or they deleted it so dirty old men didn't get ideas.) You could try a complaint to the local press but as the News of the World is defunct, I'm not sure this kind of thing has legs anymore.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 19th May 17, 12:47 PM
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    Gloomendoom
    This isn't France, in this country what is not forbidden is permitted, not the other way round.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    I'm glad somebody pointed that out.
    Advice; it rhymes with mice. Advise; it rhymes with wise.
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 19th May 17, 1:52 PM
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    silvercar
    The problem arises when an innocent 4 year old's dodgy relative sees the video, recognises the child can see the address of the ballet school and then knows where the child will be and can appear at the ballet school for whatever reason.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 19th May 17, 1:54 PM
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    Guest101
    The problem arises when an innocent 4 year old's dodgy relative sees the video, recognises the child can see the address of the ballet school and then knows where the child will be and can appear at the ballet school for whatever reason.
    Originally posted by silvercar
    Which has been mentioned atleast twice. However so far the OP hasn't mentioned anyone who is subject safeguarding limitations.
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 19th May 17, 2:23 PM
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    Penitent
    My daughter attends a ballet class aimed at very young children (less than 4) and a debate has kicked off about the taking and sharing of photographs in the class, especially considering (due to the nature of the activity) the children are wearing relatively revealing clothing.
    Originally posted by DJBenson
    I can't speak to the data protection issues, but I think this is just p**do paranoia. The ballet practice clothing I've seen doesn't show a lot of skin and at <4 years old the kids haven't got anything that would be "revealed" through a leotard.
    • DJBenson
    • By DJBenson 19th May 17, 2:24 PM
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    DJBenson
    I can't speak to the data protection issues, but I think this is just p**do paranoia. The ballet practice clothing I've seen doesn't show a lot of skin and at <4 years old the kids haven't got anything that would be "revealed" through a leotard.
    Originally posted by Penitent
    Quite welcome to your opinion, as am I.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 19th May 17, 2:48 PM
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    Malthusian
    To be honest if the OP is concerned about his daughter being seen wearing "revealing" ballet clothing the only solution is to stop taking her to ballet classes. There is far more risk of a pervert leering over his daughter when all the other parents go to pick up her classmates, any one of whom could be a secret nonce, than there is on Facebook.

    Children are most at risk from their parents. If you are confident that you are not a nonce, your children have very little to worry about.
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