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  • FIRST POST
    • LiamSwindon
    • By LiamSwindon 18th May 17, 6:35 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 2Thanks
    LiamSwindon
    Resident Permit
    • #1
    • 18th May 17, 6:35 PM
    Resident Permit 18th May 17 at 6:35 PM
    Hello,

    I desperately need help as I'm getting angrier and angrier at the parking company and feel like common sense has gone out of the window.

    I received a parking charge notice for not having my residents vehicle pass displayed in the window. I own the space as it comes with my flat. A few weeks after moving in we were told that a new parking system is in place and we have to display passes.

    I forgot on an occasion to display the pass. It is not stuck in my windscreen permanently due to:

    1) it has postcode and that causes security issues for me
    2) myself and my partner share the space (we can pay another £10 to buy another)

    I paid a lot of money for the flat and space so did not want to buy another pass.

    They sent me a letter after requesting my details from the DVLA. I tried to appeal to them but stupidly got one letter wrong from my number plate so they said a charge wasn't on record. When I eventually realised my mistake they said they would not communicate with me unless I am the driver or registered keeper. My original email said that I wasn't the driver or keeper but as I wanted to communicate and I wanted the matter resolved I said that I was. (I wish I read these forums first!)

    I sent them a picture of my vehicle pass next to my number plate as proof that it is my space. They said that it states on the signs showing passes retrospectively will not be allowed. They say that my fine still stands at £60.

    I phoned up to discuss this with a person. She wouldn't put me through to a manager when she said there was nothing she can do and then she hung up on me. My argument is that they have lost no money as it's my vehicle that would park there.

    I appealed to the IAS who said I have to pay as I've breached a 'contract'. This contract has been imposed on me as what other option is there.

    I spoke to the freeholder and management company who both say that the scheme is in place to fight 'historic parking issues'. I have argued that me parking in my own space is not an historic parking issue. It's not even an issue.

    The latest is that the management company is saying that it wouldn't be manageable to have a rule in place that sending proof of a vehicle pass is ok retrospectively.

    All of those I have spoken to say there is nothing that can be done and say I should pay. The fine is now at £100. They threaten court action and I am happy to argue my case there in the vain hope that there are people left in this world with an ounce of common sense. I want to make sure that I would win and not be left with a charge that is even worse than £100 to park in my own space.

    I've realised I've made many mistakes along the way and am looking for advice.

    The lease I have signed when I bought the place does not specifically mention the particulars of a parking scheme but says that I would have to abide by any parking regulations the management company set out (or words to that effect).

    Do I pay and stop being stubborn or do I take them on and fight for the right of every resident to not be treated like a cash cow.

    The parking company will not respond to my emails now and I'm pretty sure the management company are at the end of their tether with me and will soon refuse to talk.

    Please can someone with more experience than me advise what to do?

    Thanks in advance.

    Liam
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th May 17, 6:42 PM
    • 14,541 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 18th May 17, 6:42 PM
    • #2
    • 18th May 17, 6:42 PM
    Do I pay and stop being stubborn or do I take them on and fight for the right of every resident to not be treated like a cash cow.
    No, you don't pay. You continue to be stubborn.

    There are so many of these residential parking issues coming to the fore. All are beatable. You're beyond the appeal stages of the PPC and IAS, so you now ignore everything other than a LBC or MCOL.

    Do plenty of reading of similar cases to see how others have handled them. Here's a classic on PePiPoo to start you off.

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=110949

    And others here on MSE.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5651115

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5588292&highlight=hairray

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5649274&highlight=hairray

    Please tell us who the parking company is.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 18-05-2017 at 6:46 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 17, 12:48 AM
    • 50,045 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 19th May 17, 12:48 AM
    • #3
    • 19th May 17, 12:48 AM
    Read Hairray's thread in particular, with the 'LBA' letters for Managing Agents and the PPC.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LiamSwindon
    • By LiamSwindon 19th May 17, 6:47 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    LiamSwindon
    • #4
    • 19th May 17, 6:47 AM
    • #4
    • 19th May 17, 6:47 AM
    That's excellent thanks for your quick replies!

    The company is Parking and Property Management.

    The management company employing them (who are communicating with me as PandP are ignoring me) Cleaver Property Management.

    So frustrating!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th May 17, 8:52 AM
    • 40,304 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 19th May 17, 8:52 AM
    • #5
    • 19th May 17, 8:52 AM
    Send the MA and the parking scammers a cease and desist letter along with a statement that you withdraw any implied right of access to your demised space and any further tickets will be considered as trespass and harassment.

    Quote the court cases from the Prankster's blogspot below, pointing out that judges have said that a third party(MA and scammers) cannot add on Ts and Cs to an existing contract (lease/AST).

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    In particular ...

    In Pace v Mr N [2016] C6GF14F0 [2016] it was found that the parking company could not override the tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park.

    Please also clarify your previous comments about ownership of the parking space. In one place you say you own it but in another you refer to your lease.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th May 17, 9:33 AM
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    The Deep
    • #6
    • 19th May 17, 9:33 AM
    • #6
    • 19th May 17, 9:33 AM
    Send you MA a copy of this

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**

    You have an excellent chance of making the PPC pay a considerable amount of money here for harassing tenants, and the MA forr failing to put the best interests if the residents first. If more MAs are taken to task for employing these parasites the more likely it will be that some will go to the wall.
    Last edited by The Deep; 19-05-2017 at 9:58 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • LiamSwindon
    • By LiamSwindon 19th May 17, 11:52 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    LiamSwindon
    • #7
    • 19th May 17, 11:52 AM
    • #7
    • 19th May 17, 11:52 AM
    Hiya,

    Thanks guys 😊

    Sorry I was unclear, I bought the flat and it came with the space. I have to pay ground rent to the freeholder annually. I can't remember the exact wording of the lease, I am not able to check until Sunday now. It does mention if parking regulations come in then I'd have to adhere to them I think but it doesn't mention a pass.

    I emailed the MA asking why the decision was made to have that as part of the 'contract' when it is of no benefit to residents They keep referring to 'historical parking issues'.

    I also asked the MA to send me a copy of the contract that shows their responsibilities as when I said that I would get a petition signed by the residents she said that those renting the flats (who aren't leaseholders) opinions wouldn't count. This seemed odd as they are here for the residents and not leaseholders.

    I also asked why it couldn't be just cancelled. She said that it would not be viable. I said that I would like a financial breakdown of what it costs them to cancel a charge (as it's just a click of a button probably) and she said it's not the money that's the issue but the admin behind it. Load of rubbish.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th May 17, 12:35 PM
    • 7,005 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #8
    • 19th May 17, 12:35 PM
    • #8
    • 19th May 17, 12:35 PM
    Whilst MAs may be entitled to impose certain regulations for the greater good. employing a PPC is not one of them, especially if that PPC seeks to restrict a resident's rights.


    I agree with the MA that the views of tenants should be discounted. Tenants come and go, their priorities are not necessarily shared by their landlord, and MAs should not have to deal with tenants.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 19th May 17, 12:46 PM
    • 3,195 Posts
    • 3,234 Thanks
    DoaM
    • #9
    • 19th May 17, 12:46 PM
    • #9
    • 19th May 17, 12:46 PM
    I agree with the MA that the views of tenants should be discounted. Tenants come and go, their priorities are not necessarily shared by their landlord, and MAs should not have to deal with tenants.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    But in this case the OP isn't a tenant - he's an owner who so happens to have leasehold rather than freehold ownership.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th May 17, 12:59 PM
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    The Deep
    But in this case the OP isn't a tenant - he's an owner who so happens to have leasehold rather than freehold ownership.

    Yes I am aware of that. Most flats are leasehold.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • LiamSwindon
    • By LiamSwindon 19th May 17, 6:57 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    LiamSwindon
    Here's the response from the MA.

    Further to your email below.

    I understand you have already spoken to "freeholder" at Thomas Homes and Parking & Property Management regarding an appeal. Both have confirmed, as I do now, that the ticket is still valid as the permit was not displayed.

    I attach the confirmation from "freeholder" which was sent to you on 2nd May outlining what you need to do now. I have also spoken to PPM this AM and they confirm that as the outstanding amount has not been paid as yet, the permit with no postcode has not been sent out. This will be done, as agreed, once the amount is paid in settlement.

    To answer your query on historical parking issues. We have had lots of issues with residents with 2 vehicles parking a second car in other resident spaces, also we have had shoppers parking in residents bays and have had had numerous calls and emails on this subject across the sites. Therefore, in communication with the Directors at Thomas Homes, it was agreed that Parking Control was the only sensible option. The Lease supports this action and is necessary to ensure the smooth running of the development long term. We signed the contract for PPM to be on site, their legal advisors also checked the Lease to ensure this was OK to move forward and warden the site.

    I am sorry that you are unhappy with the method of Parking Control but due to a high volume of complaints from residents over an extended period of time, we have had no option but to implement this system.








    I took out some names and places as I thought that'd be unfair.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th May 17, 7:32 PM
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    • 6,077 Thanks
    The Deep
    The Lease supports this action

    I very much doubt that, what precisely does it say wrt parking.

    We signed the contract for PPM to be on site, their legal advisors also checked the Lease to ensure this was OK to move forward and warden the site.

    Well, they would wouldn't they.

    Read up on primacy of contract. http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 17, 7:39 PM
    • 50,045 Posts
    • 63,431 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Read hairray's thread and go on the attack v the MA. Fantastic letters written by LoadsofChildren123 on that thread last week.

    MA's need to start learning - fast - that they can't impose onerous 'terms' and third party charges on flat owners with existing parking rights.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 20th May 17, 1:48 PM
    • 1,067 Posts
    • 1,863 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    I gather from your posts that the PPC/MA is now withholding the permit from you, effectively blackmailing you into paying. That is disgraceful and if you send a LBC or letter of complaint you must add this in.

    They cannot have it both ways. If they claim they are entitled to impose these rules on you, they must not withhold your ability to comply, otherwise they have frustrated that part of the lease.

    Bottom line - even if they are entitled to introduce parking refs they are NOT entitled to impose a contract with a 3rd party, nor to levy a charge for failing to comply with it. Their only ability/right to charge you is for ground rent.

    So at worst you'd argue that this issue is between you and the MA/landowner. It's nothing to do with the PPC. At best that they aren't entitled to impose restrictions on you.

    You really need to tell us what the lease says. These things fall on the precise wording and definitions.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 20th May 17, 1:51 PM
    • 1,067 Posts
    • 1,863 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Also any variation to a lease has to be in writing I think, and also by a deed (witnessed etc). I assume this wasn't done.
    What Notice were you given of the permit system?
    • LiamSwindon
    • By LiamSwindon 24th May 17, 11:04 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    LiamSwindon
    Hiya,

    Sorry I'm still away with work so I need to try and find out what the lease says. I'm pretty sure it doesn't say specifically about displaying passes.

    We were given passes in the post and a letter telling us to we had to comply with the new rules basically.

    Here is her latest reply:

    am aware you have at length spoken to PPM and Thomas Homes., Both have instructed you the same and confirmed the charge remains in place. As Managing agent we were aware that parking will become and issue on site, and indeed per below, residents confirmed this once they moved in:

    “They are able to park in between the bollards”

    “I've just seen someone park in my space and walk into this building. Have we got allocated parking spaces as I was given mine when I first moved in?
    'Name', When will we be getting parking permits? I'm getting frustrated with not being able to park in my space”

    “Once again I have come home to someone in my space. Still nothing has been done to prevent this.”

    We have many more and many more phone calls on this. The land is under Thomas Homes Management and we manage the day to day requirements on their behalf for the communal areas. The Lease shows you have an allocated bay and also confirms that the Directors, Thomas Homes, have the right to have a system such as this put in place. We discussed the issues with the Directors and agreed with them that we would put in place Parking Control. We have signed the contract with PPM for the site, we have the ability to do this as Managing Agent for Thomas Homes.

    I have nothing further to add on this, and can’t continue to spend time on this matter as I am sure you can appreciate.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 24th May 17, 11:31 AM
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    The Deep
    The Lease shows you have an allocated bay

    So you do not own the space as you stated in post 1. This considerably changes things and the precise wording of the lease is crucial. So far, you have not told us what that is.

    Tell the MA lady that she will have very little choice but to devote much more time to this if you find the PPC has attempted to interfere with your peaceful enjoyment of your property. Judges are taking a very hard line with PPCs, who harass occupants of flats, and claims are in the pipeline for making PPCs pay heavily for breaching the DPA. MAs could well find themselves included in those claims.
    Last edited by The Deep; 24-05-2017 at 11:41 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 24th May 17, 11:34 AM
    • 5,956 Posts
    • 7,673 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Hiya,

    Sorry I'm still away with work so I need to try and find out what the lease says. I'm pretty sure it doesn't say specifically about displaying passes.

    We were given passes in the post and a letter telling us to we had to comply with the new rules basically.

    Here is her latest reply:

    am aware you have at length spoken to PPM and Thomas Homes., Both have instructed you the same and confirmed the charge remains in place. As Managing agent we were aware that parking will become and issue on site, and indeed per below, residents confirmed this once they moved in:

    “They are able to park in between the bollards”

    “I've just seen someone park in my space and walk into this building. Have we got allocated parking spaces as I was given mine when I first moved in?
    'Name', When will we be getting parking permits? I'm getting frustrated with not being able to park in my space”

    “Once again I have come home to someone in my space. Still nothing has been done to prevent this.”

    We have many more and many more phone calls on this. The land is under Thomas Homes Management and we manage the day to day requirements on their behalf for the communal areas. The Lease shows you have an allocated bay and also confirms that the Directors, Thomas Homes, have the right to have a system such as this put in place. We discussed the issues with the Directors and agreed with them that we would put in place Parking Control. We have signed the contract with PPM for the site, we have the ability to do this as Managing Agent for Thomas Homes.

    I have nothing further to add on this, and can’t continue to spend time on this matter as I am sure you can appreciate.
    Originally posted by LiamSwindon
    Terrible letter from them, was it written by the office junior?

    "We have many more and many more phone calls on this"

    So they already know of the problem and this has been proven in the courts where a resident has rights to park

    Ignore the comment "I have nothing further to add on this"
    The fact is, you have a lot more to say especially as they are jointly responsible for their agent (PPC)
    You will have no option but to involve them in any court action to explain to a judge why they dismiss your unfettered rights

    Read this ...
    UKPC lose residential case
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/ukpc-lose-residential-case-will-vicim.html
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • LiamSwindon
    • By LiamSwindon 25th May 17, 8:06 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    LiamSwindon
    Hey I took a picture of my lease a while back. Here's the wording I could find.

    'The right to the use and enjoyment of the allocated parking space for the purpose of parking a private motor vehicle no more than three tonnes provided that the lessor may at any time or times by notice in writing to the lessee allocate a different parking space and/or may suspend the lessors for such time as is reasonable in the circumstances the lessees right to use the parking space if works affecting it needs to be carried out.'

    I may actually sue them as the lady I'm speaking with is being dismissive of my arguments.

    Cheers guys!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th May 17, 10:58 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Show us your LBA, based on the letters written by LoC123 on hairray's thread. That is certainly the way to make them sit up and listen.

    How dare they inflict PPM on residents.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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