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  • FIRST POST
    • Shoodie
    • By Shoodie 18th May 17, 5:23 PM
    • 15Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Shoodie
    F1rst Parking TWO PCNs same day: 1 paid, 1 appealed and rejected!!!
    • #1
    • 18th May 17, 5:23 PM
    F1rst Parking TWO PCNs same day: 1 paid, 1 appealed and rejected!!! 18th May 17 at 5:23 PM
    Ok I have researched other threads and I do believe I am caught in a unique circumstances (do prove me wrong) which is why I have started a new one.

    I was caught driving TWICE onto Royal Holloway university premises by ANPR cameras managed by F1rst Parking LLP (a member of the BPA). I was not ticketed but received two PCNs in the post.

    The timings that day were:
    Arrival time 12:50 Departure 14:17
    Arrival time 14:26 Departure 17:53

    The reason for the two visits is that I left just to grab some lunch. The reason I was visiting is that since I've been made redundant, I'm using their library to study for my next job. I was not aware their parking was so strictly enforced. A lame but honest excuse.

    As I was in the wrong I decided to pay promptly the reduced fine of £30 for ONE of the tickets - the one which had the longer stay. I decided to appeal the other one on the grounds that it was one of two tickets on the same day and that I only left for a short moment and that I had already paid for one of the tickets. My logic was that had I not left I would have only been issued one ticket. I also mentioned that I was accused of allegedly breaching their parking regulations but their photographic evidence only showed when I entered and left the premises - not when (if indeed I was) parked during those times.

    I was expecting they would show leniency. I was wrong. They rejected it.

    Problem is I have now come to this site for help only to find that I have already shot myself in the foot....
    When I appealed to F1rst Parking, I filled out their form admitting I was the driver and also provided them my home correspondence address.

    I now realise I should NOT have done that!!

    So my question is what are the BEST grounds on which to appeal to POPLA??? Or do I even appeal at all given what I have disclosed?
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th May 17, 5:35 PM
    • 40,410 Posts
    • 80,713 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 18th May 17, 5:35 PM
    • #2
    • 18th May 17, 5:35 PM
    You paid? We never, recommend that. Most PCNs can be beaten provided you do your research.

    Yes you should always appeal.

    There are several template appeal points you can use from post 3 of the NEWBIES thread. You should use all that apply.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th May 17, 5:36 PM
    • 14,859 Posts
    • 23,325 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 18th May 17, 5:36 PM
    • #3
    • 18th May 17, 5:36 PM
    There's no 'leniency' in this game!

    You forget about the second ticket, that's over and done with. Treat your first one as completely separate. You've appealed that, but we don't know how many of your toes you've blown off in the process. Can you copy and paste that for us to see?

    Did they send you a POPLA code with their rejection letter? When does the code expire?

    You've given us the timings of the events, can you give us the date and when you received the PPC's notification of the parking charge?

    The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3 covers how to appeal to POPLA, with some ready written template appeal points. Use those to develop your first draft and let us see it for critique and fine tuning. But first, provide answers to the preceding questions.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Shoodie
    • By Shoodie 18th May 17, 6:58 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shoodie
    • #4
    • 18th May 17, 6:58 PM
    • #4
    • 18th May 17, 6:58 PM
    we don't know how many of your toes you've blown off in the process.
    Thanks

    Can you copy and paste that for us to see?
    I'd have expected for them to email me a copy of my appeal for reference. They did not so the exact wording is lost. But I hope the gist I have provided in my opening post will suffice. Their response didn't seem to particularly acknowledge anything I said anyway.

    Here's a paste:

    We acknowledge receipt of your appeal, regarding the above parking charge. Parking at this site is only for vehicles that are parked in accordance with the terms and conditions, as detailed on the signage on site. This signage is clear, in line with industry standards and clearly details any charges that may be imposed, should these terms and conditions be breached.

    I have now had the opportunity to review this case and my findings are:
    After reviewing the photographic evidence and also your appeal information; on this occasion I will be rejecting the appeal. It is the driver's responsibility to ensure they are registered/authorised to park on site.
    As your vehicle was parked in contravention of the Terms and Conditions of the car park, we are satisfied that the notice was issued correctly in accordance with the BPA Code of Practice and are therefore unable to waiver the charge on this occasion.

    You have now reached the end of our internal appeals process

    Therefore please choose from one of the following options:

    1.Pay the parking charge at the price of £60

    Methods of payment:
    * Pay by Phone – Call 0200 333 1995
    * Pay online – visit paymyparking net
    * Pay by Post – send a cheque or postal order made payable to First Parking LLP to the following address:

    First Parking LLP, OFFICE 7, 35-37 LUDGATE HILL, LONDON, EC4M 7JN, UNITED KINGDOM

    Please be advised that debit card payments made will incur a £1 transaction fee and credit cards will incur a 3% transaction fee.

    2. Make an appeal to POPLA within 28 days from the rejection date – The Independent Appeals Service at popla org uk/default htm. Please note that if you wish to appeal to POPLA, you will lose the right to pay the charge at the discounted rate of £30 (if applicable), and should POPLA's decision not go in your favour you will be required to pay the full amount of £60. By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (ombudsman-services org) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above

    3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us through our debt recovery service and may proceed with Court action against you. First Parking may also conduct a search with a credit bureau.

    Yours Sincerely


    Did they send you a POPLA code with their rejection letter? When does the code expire?
    Yes they did provide a POPLA appeal verification code. It was received today so I'm assuming it expires in 28 days.

    can you give us the date and when you received the PPC's notification of the parking charge?
    I picked it up in the post yesterday from my old address where I no longer live. It may have been delivered any time within the last 7 days. I'm in the process of updating DVLA of my new address. Are there any particular dates you are after?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th May 17, 7:08 PM
    • 50,582 Posts
    • 63,964 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 18th May 17, 7:08 PM
    • #5
    • 18th May 17, 7:08 PM
    I picked it up in the post yesterday from my old address where I no longer live. It may have been delivered any time within the last 7 days. I'm in the process of updating DVLA of my new address. Are there any particular dates you are after?
    No, it doesn't matter about dates, because that toe was blown off when you admitted to being the driver.

    Why not search the forum for 'F1rst POPLA' (including the number '1' instead of 'i' in the company spelling). You will find loads of examples of long POPLA appeals that have killed off these fake PCNs for months. They infest several universities.

    Only read recent ones from 2016/17.

    And read post #3 of the NEWBIES thread. There are several POPLA appeal templates you can use.

    As I was in the wrong I decided to pay promptly the reduced fine of £30 for ONE of the tickets
    Ouch...no-one PAYS this scummy industry. They are not worthy of your money.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Shoodie
    • By Shoodie 30th Jun 17, 6:06 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shoodie
    • #6
    • 30th Jun 17, 6:06 PM
    • #6
    • 30th Jun 17, 6:06 PM
    Hi all, on POPLA the Operator has responded with 'Information and Evidence'. It's a 25 page PDF document consisting of photographs of my car entering and leaving the campus (not parked), signage, their computer display showing screenshots that I don't have a permit for parking, the University's rules for parking, the campus map of parking areas, T&Cs for Service, etc.


    In that document they have concluded:
    'As you can see from the photographic evidence the appellant has failed to register their vehicle. By the driver's own admission on their online appeal there were the driver on the day of the contravention. There is clear and adequate signage in the car park that shows the regulations to the motorists. The driver has therefore not adhered to the parking regulations.'


    (That quote is word for word, I must add, including the grammar.)


    POPLA have asked for me to comment. How do I respond?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Jun 17, 6:11 PM
    • 50,582 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 30th Jun 17, 6:11 PM
    • #7
    • 30th Jun 17, 6:11 PM
    Pick out the bits they've failed on:

    - have they included a landowner contract? We assume you included that point in your appeal (you didn't come back to show us a draft). Hope you used all the usual ammo.

    - are their photos of the signs clear? REALLY clear, can you read the £60 or whatever?

    - are their signage pics dated at a similar time to the car being there?

    - have they got pics showing the car and the sign, in the same image?

    - is there a close up of the dashboard proving (beyond doubt), no permit?

    Pick out where they have failed, compared to the points you appealed on.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Shoodie
    • By Shoodie 30th Jun 17, 10:22 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shoodie
    • #8
    • 30th Jun 17, 10:22 PM
    • #8
    • 30th Jun 17, 10:22 PM
    - have they included a landowner contract?
    I'm not sure. They've included what is called 'Terms and Conditions of Contract for Services' between the University and F1rst Parking.

    - are their photos of the signs clear? REALLY clear, can you read the £60 or whatever?
    They haven't included any photos of the signage. They've included electronic versions of their signs on which the £60 is clear yes.

    - have they got pics showing the car and the sign, in the same image?
    No they have not.

    - is there a close up of the dashboard proving (beyond doubt), no permit?
    No there is not.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 30th Jun 17, 10:28 PM
    • 14,859 Posts
    • 23,325 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 30th Jun 17, 10:28 PM
    • #9
    • 30th Jun 17, 10:28 PM
    They could be struggling then.

    Rip them apart on missing/unclear evidence. Don't hold back?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Jun 17, 10:31 PM
    • 50,582 Posts
    • 63,964 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    - have they included a landowner contract?
    I'm not sure. They've included what is called 'Terms and Conditions of Contract for Services' between the University and F1rst Parking.

    - are their photos of the signs clear? REALLY clear, can you read the £60 or whatever?
    They haven't included any photos of the signage. They've included electronic versions of their signs only...

    - have they got pics showing the car and the sign, in the same image?
    No they have not.

    - is there a close up of the dashboard proving (beyond doubt), no permit?
    No there is not.
    Originally posted by Shoodie
    There you go then, you have your bullet points for POPLA in your comments about the evidence. That was easy!

    Point all of the above out. Wow, no images of the signs in situ?! Madness.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Shoodie
    • By Shoodie 30th Jun 17, 10:31 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shoodie
    Thanks. I will. But would you class 'Terms and Conditions of Contract for Services' as a landowner contract?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Jun 17, 10:34 PM
    • 50,582 Posts
    • 63,964 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Possibly...but is it signed by both parties (F1rst and the Uni) and are the signatories named under the signatures?

    And is the date of that signed document before the parking event?

    And is there a stated expiry date of that 'contract'?

    If the answer to any of the above is ''no'' then add that in to your comments bullet points as well!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Shoodie
    • By Shoodie 30th Jun 17, 10:52 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shoodie
    Yes signed by both parties. But the 'Print Name' sections have large red rectangles over them so I'm assuming they've been blanked out.

    There is a 'Commencement date' specified in the contract which pre-dates the parking event yes.

    The expiry date is defined but referred to in another 'clause' of the contract which hasn't been provided.
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 30th Jun 17, 11:14 PM
    • 7,635 Posts
    • 7,698 Thanks
    pogofish
    Ok I have researched other threads and I do believe I am caught in a unique circumstances (do prove me wrong)
    Originally posted by Shoodie
    The Newbies Sticky proves you wrong - and very stupid.

    PPC's don't give two-hoots about individual circumstances and the arrogance of victims who assume they are something different from the norm almost always results their undoing.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Jun 17, 11:30 PM
    • 50,582 Posts
    • 63,964 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The expiry date is defined but referred to in another 'clause' of the contract which hasn't been provided.
    Originally posted by Shoodie
    Nice - there's another bullet for your 'bullet points'!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Shoodie
    • By Shoodie 30th Jun 17, 11:51 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Shoodie
    The Newbies Sticky proves you wrong - and very stupid.

    PPC's don't give two-hoots about individual circumstances and the arrogance of victims who assume they are something different from the norm almost always results their undoing.
    Originally posted by pogofish
    I always come to MSE for help and advice from wonderful people who help others from the goodness of their heart. I'm sure you mean well but I'm struggling to decipher your message?
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 1st Jul 17, 8:47 AM
    • 2,477 Posts
    • 3,713 Thanks
    fisherjim
    Hi all, on POPLA the Operator has responded with 'Information and Evidence'. It's a 25 page PDF document consisting of photographs of my car entering and leaving the campus (not parked), signage, their computer display showing screenshots that I don't have a permit for parking, the University's rules for parking, the campus map of parking areas, T&Cs for Service, etc.


    In that document they have concluded:
    'As you can see from the photographic evidence the appellant has failed to register their vehicle. By the driver's own admission on their online appeal there were the driver on the day of the contravention. There is clear and adequate signage in the car park that shows the regulations to the motorists. The driver has therefore not adhered to the parking regulations.'


    (That quote is word for word, I must add, including the grammar.)


    POPLA have asked for me to comment. How do I respond?
    Originally posted by Shoodie
    Are they allowed to use the word "regulations"?
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jul 17, 3:58 PM
    • 50,582 Posts
    • 63,964 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, it's a general word with an understood meaning.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 3rd Jul 17, 10:03 PM
    • 7,635 Posts
    • 7,698 Thanks
    pogofish
    I always come to MSE for help and advice from wonderful people who help others from the goodness of their heart. I'm sure you mean well but I'm struggling to decipher your message?
    Originally posted by Shoodie
    Yet despite your "research", you seem to have completely missed the most wonderful resource for helping people successfully challenge private tickets - anywhere, despite it being in the very first place to look and gone-off on an utterly unproductive tangent of your own.

    And you actually paid a PPC - yegods!
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