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  • FIRST POST
    • Dazzanic
    • By Dazzanic 18th May 17, 5:11 PM
    • 4Posts
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    Dazzanic
    Abusive Boss
    • #1
    • 18th May 17, 5:11 PM
    Abusive Boss 18th May 17 at 5:11 PM
    Hi, today I took in my resignation letter and spoke to my boss initially he was calm them started verbally abusing me telling me to **** off and that he would destroy me and the company I am going to work with resulting in him again telling me to get the **** out and take garden leave until they decided what to do with me
    Once I got home the MD phoned asking me to change his mind when I politely said no he then said I had copied files to a USB drive and he would speak to their solicitor, I told him I had copied files as I knew they would try to hold off paying me thousands in owed commissions
    I feel very down about being spoken too by my manager
Page 2
    • stator
    • By stator 19th May 17, 10:31 AM
    • 5,804 Posts
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    stator
    Stop making up stuff.
    Wait for the OP to return, if they ever do.
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 19th May 17, 10:41 AM
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    jobbingmusician
    Yep. OK, I am potentially willing to change my view (as I said earlier) since people seem to believe that computer data has a special status. However, my point about not knowing what s/he has taken (which you have acknowledged ) - if it was an Excel file which the OP has edited to show client identifier, date of sale and commission due, for example, I feel it is OTT to classify this as theft simply because it is an extract from computer records rather than a notebook.

    And theft, I would remind you, deprives an owner of something. If the OP has taken a copy of some data with no intention to deprive (and I exclude, for the basis of this discussion, sensitive client data - let's assume that what the OP said was true and they have copied ONLY the info necessary to enable them to check their commission payments) then it is not theft.

    And of course, the employer is probably investigating what (potentially) HAS been taken... again, you are right, probably more to the story....

    (As for the concept of having a memory - if only. I wish I still had one of those!)
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

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    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 19th May 17, 10:57 AM
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    sangie595
    But we don't even know that the OP took information relating to their alleged commission. There is no information that says that the information taken in any way relates to their commission potentially not being paid. It may, as some have suggested, have been information taken to blackmail the company into paying. There is insufficient evidence to say there is any correlation between the information taken and an alleged intent not to pay money due.

    One thing that they may not have considered though - what if the old employer informs the new employer? Whatever the rights and wrongs, most employers will be very wary of employing someone who may remove their data, for any reason!
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 19th May 17, 11:15 AM
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    A breach may have occurred but there is no quantifiable loss so there could not be any penalty to pay. If OP was selling the data I could understand the upset but to just obtain details of the pay they are owed is not a sin.
    Originally posted by foolofbeans
    The loss, if they have taken protected data, could be quantifiable and huge. They may now be open to lawsuits from every customer whose data has been compromised. it is dependent entirely on what they have taken, There is no indication anywhere that they have "just obtained details for the pay they are owed" and, as already noted by others, even that could very easily contain protected information.
    • andrewsegawa
    • By andrewsegawa 19th May 17, 1:54 PM
    • 1 Posts
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    andrewsegawa
    It was a serious mistake to download company Data. Just go back to office and talk with your Boss for a safe exit
    • Mersey
    • By Mersey 19th May 17, 6:07 PM
    • 1,518 Posts
    • 719 Thanks
    Mersey
    You stole company information - uhm that's a criminal matter, you could go to prison, it will certainly cost you your new jobs.
    Originally posted by Guest101


    That has to be one of the most ludicrous assertions I have ever read on this site.


    The OP did not - employees and self employed consultants are entitled to retain copy documents in order to assert their rights at a later date and in particular invoices or billing informing relating to their performance which may affect PILON, bonuses or their prospective salary at a future employer. Indeed it is actually recommended by recruiters who specialise in locum lawyers and so on.




    Indeed from the information contained within the OP's original post, if anyone broke the law it was not the OP, it was the manager by the threat made.
    Last edited by Mersey; 19-05-2017 at 6:09 PM.
    Please be polite to OPs and remember this is a site for Claimants and Appellants to seek redress against their bank, ex-boss or retailer. If they wanted morality or the view of the IoD or Bank they'd ask them.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 19th May 17, 6:24 PM
    • 15,147 Posts
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    Guest101
    Ihm - invoices would be issued by the OP ( or lick lawyer in your case ) not by the company...
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 20th May 17, 3:06 PM
    • 1,878 Posts
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    That has to be one of the most ludicrous assertions I have ever read on this site.

    The OP did not - employees and self employed consultants are entitled to retain copy documents in order to assert their rights at a later date and in particular invoices or billing informing relating to their performance which may affect PILON, bonuses or their prospective salary at a future employer. Indeed it is actually recommended by recruiters who specialise in locum lawyers and so on.
    Originally posted by Mersey
    There's no reason to assume that that information is all he took.
    Last edited by ScorpiondeRooftrouser; 20-05-2017 at 3:08 PM.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 20th May 17, 4:14 PM
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    sangie595
    There's no reason to assume that that information is all he took.
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    Nor that this is the information that they took at all. Nowhere does the OP say what they took.

    I'd also be interested in hearing from where this "entitlement" arises. Because taking company information, last time I looked, was anywhere between frowned upon and against the law. I am not aware of any law that says that employees are entitled to take certain types of company information because they might find it useful. It'd be a handy law to know about. So which one is it?
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 20th May 17, 4:58 PM
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I assume the question above is not directed at me; I don't claim that there is any such law.
    • Dazzanic
    • By Dazzanic 20th May 17, 8:56 PM
    • 4 Posts
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    Dazzanic
    Hi
    Situation is I used my own USB drive to copy sales, prices etc to make sure probably some months down the line when all my commissions eventually came through they were what they should be because I will be long gone I have no way of finding out if they have increased costs to reduce my commission, this has been a common problem with salesmen who have previously left the company
    The info was info I accessed on a daily basis as part of my job on my company laptop, most of which was done outside of the workplace as I'm on the road most of the time or working on a night preparing quotes etc
    I have not accessed the USB drive since handing in my notice and won't do so until my payslip arrives, this can be easily checked by them as when you plug in a USB drive it is kind of time stamped
    I feel what I have done is totalling justified as we're talking thousands of pounds here, I was doing deals 12 hours before handing in my notice!
    • Dazzanic
    • By Dazzanic 20th May 17, 9:04 PM
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    Dazzanic
    I will also add what I copied were excel and word documents created by me and were not files of the company server etc
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 20th May 17, 9:13 PM
    • 3,112 Posts
    • 2,837 Thanks
    Undervalued
    Nor that this is the information that they took at all. Nowhere does the OP say what they took.

    I'd also be interested in hearing from where this "entitlement" arises. Because taking company information, last time I looked, was anywhere between frowned upon and against the law. I am not aware of any law that says that employees are entitled to take certain types of company information because they might find it useful. It'd be a handy law to know about. So which one is it?
    Originally posted by sangie595
    There doesn't need to be one!

    We live in the UK, not France. Here everything is allowed unless there is a law specifically forbidding it!
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 20th May 17, 10:22 PM
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    sangie595
    There doesn't need to be one!

    We live in the UK, not France. Here everything is allowed unless there is a law specifically forbidding it!
    Originally posted by Undervalued
    If, as claimed, it is an entitlement, then yes, there does need to be something that says that. There is no entitlement to take files from your employer. No matter who created them. Or where they were when they filled in information in the course of their duties. The OP appears to have taken information that could be interpreted as business critical - details of clients and prices. There are plenty of cases of people being sued for doing such things. Take a look at this, for example - http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=193109da-d1f1-4684-a37a-ebe45c4ed5a1 Have a look at the information having the quality of confidence - which includes exactly the information that the OP has taken.

    Having copied and taken business critical information, it is hardly surprising, as I said before, that the employer is consulting their solicitor. If this information "happened" to fall into a competitors hands, that could have significant impact on the former employer, and I would expect that they would be looking to ensuring that cannot happen. And if such legal steps are taken, then there is every possibility of the former employer threatening the new employer with legal action. It wouldn't be the first time on here that that simple action has resulted in the new employer deciding that the person is too hot to handle, and getting rid of them is the easiest option.
    • Dazzanic
    • By Dazzanic 20th May 17, 11:07 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Dazzanic
    Info
    Files copied were sales to date along with price lists and customer info all of which were on an excel spreadsheet compiled by me
    It showed customer, sale price, cost price, profit then a calculation showing expected commission
    I understand from a solicitor friend who I've just managed to get in touch with, that "digital information stored electronically cannot be classed as property and as such someone cannot excesice possession of" judges in the UK have made this ruling
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 21st May 17, 9:28 AM
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    sangie595
    Files copied were sales to date along with price lists and customer info all of which were on an excel spreadsheet compiled by me
    It showed customer, sale price, cost price, profit then a calculation showing expected commission
    I understand from a solicitor friend who I've just managed to get in touch with, that "digital information stored electronically cannot be classed as property and as such someone cannot excesice possession of" judges in the UK have made this ruling
    Originally posted by Dazzanic
    That ruling is about intellectual and copyright possession. It had absolutely nothing to do with anything here. Although if you read the ruling carefully, you will find that it does assert that there are distinctions between the physical medium, the rights to information, and the actual information. The actual information cannot be treated as property. The right to that information (which you obtained solely as a result of your employment) can be. Your right to use commercially valuable or sensitive information ceases when your employment ends. As I have already said, the employer can seek to ensure that that information is not misused - that is their legal right. And the consequences of any action by them to ensure that is the case will be yours. There is a difference between "the law" and "the real world". "The law" might not be worth pursuing in a court, save to ensure you are legally bound not to share that information. But a letter from a solicitor to the new employer, which costs next to nothing, saying that you have removed sensitive commercial data, and it is considered that the new employer put you up to this so they will be cited in legal action against you - that can be enough to put the new employer off keeping you. To avoid any prospect of legal action. Or simply because they don't want you removing their commercially sensitive files!
    • Mersey
    • By Mersey 21st May 17, 5:16 PM
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    Mersey
    Files copied were sales to date along with price lists and customer info all of which were on an excel spreadsheet compiled by me

    It showed customer, sale price, cost price, profit then a calculation showing expected commission
    Originally posted by Dazzanic


    Which is perfectly normally as you are entitled so to do. It merely evidences your performance for both any bonus or commission accrued which may be owing and also bolsters any CV or reference.


    sangie595 appears to be conflating or confusing taking commercial secrets or clients with you - for which it is usual to restrict any employee (although only around half of firms add this restriction to contracts these days as many have failed when challenged as they were too wide in scope ie cannot work within same field within 30 miles) - with simple lists of work carried out.


    I repeat it is usual and indeed advisable for employees and especially contractors and consultants to retain copy docs detailing work sheets/time engaged/hours billed and photos of the work in the engineering or design world.


    In the legal world, you can take lists of client names, chargeable hours. You can even take precedents and sample (anonymised) letters. What you can't do is publish the hourly rates charged as this may be commercially confidential or reveal the contents of specific files, as the bulk of correspondence will remain privileged even beyond the death of a client.
    Please be polite to OPs and remember this is a site for Claimants and Appellants to seek redress against their bank, ex-boss or retailer. If they wanted morality or the view of the IoD or Bank they'd ask them.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 22nd May 17, 8:31 AM
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    sangie595
    Your problem is that this is not the legal world. And this is not a contractor or a consultant. And even if it were, as several of us have pointed out already, the issue is not what they now say they copied the information for, it is the fact that they got caught by the employer and (a) the employer is entitled to take legal advice and to address any concerns about commercial sensitivity, and (b) not everything in the world is about what the law says, and the former employer stirring the pot with the new employer is something that they can very easily do, and there is nothing to stop them doing so.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 22nd May 17, 9:23 AM
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    Undervalued
    Your problem is that this is not the legal world. And this is not a contractor or a consultant. And even if it were, as several of us have pointed out already, the issue is not what they now say they copied the information for, it is the fact that they got caught by the employer and (a) the employer is entitled to take legal advice and to address any concerns about commercial sensitivity, and (b) not everything in the world is about what the law says, and the former employer stirring the pot with the new employer is something that they can very easily do, and there is nothing to stop them doing so.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    That they could certainly do but they would have no legal claim against the employee unless he actually did something improper with the information. Just having a copy and keeping it to himself, or using it as evidence to pursue a legal claim against his former employer for money owed, is not something they could take action about.

    In a way this is a bit like the oft discussed covert recording of a conversation you are party to. It is not a crime nor is it open to any civil action unless you publish the recording or a transcript to a third party.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 22nd May 17, 9:44 AM
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    sangie595
    That they could certainly do but they would have no legal claim against the employee unless he actually did something improper with the information. Just having a copy and keeping it to himself, or using it as evidence to pursue a legal claim against his former employer for money owed, is not something they could take action about.

    In a way this is a bit like the oft discussed covert recording of a conversation you are party to. It is not a crime nor is it open to any civil action unless you publish the recording or a transcript to a third party.
    Originally posted by Undervalued
    I agree. But as we both know, it isn't always about the law. As I said, I wonder what the new employer might make of a phone call??? They may be fine. They may be rather less than fine.

    It would be moot anyway I suspect. It is what it is. The OP, according to their thread on another site, left the drive behind in the office, and no way are they getting back in to retrieve it now. So their evidence is gone anyway. Although there are other differences in the other thread too, so I'm not sure which is the correct version.
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