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    • gcpal1
    • By gcpal1 18th May 17, 1:11 PM
    • 6Posts
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    gcpal1
    PCM ticket -Please help, need advice whether to pay or challenge
    • #1
    • 18th May 17, 1:11 PM
    PCM ticket -Please help, need advice whether to pay or challenge 18th May 17 at 1:11 PM
    Hi,

    PCM recently put signs up and forced residents to have to sign up and pay for permits on the estate I live in (Glebe Court, Mitcham, SW London). My partnerdid so and paid for an annual permit. The main thing to note that will make sense later is that whilst the PCM signs say you have to park in marked bays, there are no lines marking the confines of individual bays, only a perimeter line around the gardens along the roads. As a result people consistently park stupidly, taking up space that could easily be used to fit 2 cars in.

    After finishing work late she arrived home and found there to be no available parking spaces, as several people had parked stupidly taking up 2 cars worth of space. She parked in a yellow boxed area at the end of the road which caused no obstruction to any other drives or homeowners. The following day she had a PCN attached to her window from 03:30 am requesting 60 in 14 days or 100 thereafter.

    I've read the stickies and plenty of posts about these cases. My concern is that she has done something she shouldn't have, but also that their rules don't really apply: If people must park "wholly within the confines of a marked bay", then surely individual vehicle bays must be painted. If this had been done then other people parking across 2 bays would be punished as well, or they would have parked correctly and she also would have been able to park her car.

    Come Sunday it will have been 14 days since receiving the PCN on the window. I don't wait to pay, but also can't afford to not and it go up to 100. We haven't appealed through their site yet as it would mean giving them our home address (they might already have it anyway, not sure if my partner gave it when signing up for a permit). Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Cheers,

    gcpal1
Page 1
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 18th May 17, 1:19 PM
    • 328 Posts
    • 581 Thanks
    safarmuk
    • #2
    • 18th May 17, 1:19 PM
    • #2
    • 18th May 17, 1:19 PM
    Some questions that will help us help you:

    1) Do you live in a flat or house on an estate with flats
    2) Do you own (have a lease) or rent (have an Assured Shorthold Tenancy)
    3) Do you pay a service charge to a Management Agent (likely if you are the owner)
    4) Do you have a freeholder that you pay ground rent to (likely if you are the owner)
    5) When you say PCM recently put signs up and forced residents to have to sign up and pay for permits - how was this "forcibly imposed", direct from PCM or via the Management Company
    6) What were the reasons for the Parking Scheme to be adopted
    7) Do other residents experience or have experienced the same problems
    8) Do you have a copy of your lease or AST to hand and what does it say in that document about parking
    9) Does the lease or AST pre-date the Parking Scheme
    • gcpal1
    • By gcpal1 18th May 17, 2:28 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    gcpal1
    • #3
    • 18th May 17, 2:28 PM
    • #3
    • 18th May 17, 2:28 PM
    1) Live in a flat on an estate which comprises primarily of blocks of flats. There are some bungalows, a scout hall and one house on the grounds as well.
    2) I own the flat via lease.
    3) Yes, annually.
    4) Yes, a small amount annually.
    5) The management company sent a letter around months ago highlighting the problem with parking, due to there being too many vehicles and not enough spaces. There was also an issue of people using the estate as free parking and then going into the town. The letter stated that a vote was being held: for and against bringing in a private car parking firm. Anyone who didn't cast a vote would automatically have their vote taken as FOR the private firm. Seeing as a large number of residents are of old age, or just don't have cars, the vote came out as a majority FOR the private firm. I assume this was because a lot of residents didn't actually vote, but this was deemed as a vote FOR the firm, which is ridiculous in it's own right.
    6) (answered in 5)
    7) I'm not aware of any neighbours who drive having received similar fines, but they have expressed anger in the way the vote was carried out, and that it isn't being fairly enforced due to the bays not being marked etc.
    8) There's not a whole lot but these are the most relevant bits from my lease:

    11. No car or van or other vehicle shall be parked in any garden, forecourt, roadway or pathway adjoining or near to the building on the estate except on areas which have been set aside for parking purposes or permitted to cause any nuisance on the estate.

    ......

    (8) That subject to clause 6(2) hereof the Landlord will maintain and keep in good repair and condition the access roads, footpaths to open spaces and other common areas of the estate.
    (9) That subject to clause 6(2) hereof the Landlord will use it's best endeavours to keep clean and reasonably lighted the access roads, footpaths to open spaces and other common areas of the estate.


    9)The lease is dated from March 1987. The parking scheme started at the start of May this year.


    Many thanks.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th May 17, 2:48 PM
    • 38,962 Posts
    • 77,736 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 18th May 17, 2:48 PM
    • #4
    • 18th May 17, 2:48 PM
    So there is no mention of a parking charge payment due in your lease/AST. A third party (parking scammers) cannot add on Ts and Cs to your existing contract (lease/AST) with the landowner.

    If there are no marked parking bays then insisting that is where residents park is an unfair term as they are guaranteed to fail. Alternatively, a hatched area, being the only marked area, could reasonably be assumed to be a marked parking area.

    Are there any signs defining parking and non parking areas?

    Please confirm the full name of the parking scammers as there are several with those or similar initials.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 18-05-2017 at 2:51 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • gcpal1
    • By gcpal1 18th May 17, 4:34 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    gcpal1
    • #5
    • 18th May 17, 4:34 PM
    • #5
    • 18th May 17, 4:34 PM
    That's true. My partner applied for a permit through PCM (Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd) and the only relevant Ts&Cs from them I can see on the form she signed was the statement "I agree to park my vehicle accordingly to advertised restrictions."

    I have a picture of the sign and how the car was parked but I cant seem to upload at the moment as i'm a new user. The only mention on the sign about actually parking is:

    Vehicles must be parked fully displaying within the windscreen either a valid resident parking permit or a valid 24hr maximum stay scratchcard & parked wholly within the confines of a marked bay.

    There are no signs defining specific parking areas. There are white painted lines around certain parts of the roads that run parallel with the edge of the road, and some yellow lines on corners. The white lines aren't separated for individual vehicle bays, so there's no definition of a singular bay. From looking on google street view (pictures taken from 2014) it seems as if there used to be some white lines defining singular bays but these have long faded away. There are other areas where people park which have no painted lines or markings at all, and these seem to be recognized as 'official bays' by PCM as I haven't seen anyone get a fine from parking there.

    The company is called Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd.

    Many thanks,

    gcpal1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th May 17, 4:52 PM
    • 38,962 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 18th May 17, 4:52 PM
    • #6
    • 18th May 17, 4:52 PM
    You can upload (redacted) images to a web hosting site such as tinypic or photobucket, then post the URL here but change http to hxxp. Someone here will then change it back to a live link for you.

    The keeper should send the IPC template letter in black from the NEWBIES thread. Copy and paste and send. Do not miss the appeal deadline which will be either 21 or 28 days. You need to check which it is, then send it as near to the deadline as possible by whatever means it says on the PCN. On no account give away the driver's identity.

    Add that since the keeper's AST/lease trumps the parking scammers made up Ts and Cs, the keeper is not liable. Do this carefully so as not to reveal the driver's identity. This is the keeper's priority.

    Quote the court cases from this link where judges have said that a third party (parking scammers) cannot add on Ts and Cs to an existing contract (AST/lease.)

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 18-05-2017 at 5:02 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • gcpal1
    • By gcpal1 18th May 17, 5:19 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    gcpal1
    • #7
    • 18th May 17, 5:19 PM
    • #7
    • 18th May 17, 5:19 PM
    Here are the pictures:

    Sign:

    hxxps://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN5YAincKTzJVjot18qaZHw71L7MA04Qb-uEu63

    Car as was parked:

    hxxps://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOph9SeSPOCczpd74ziOAAomlKONjDuSAQxsa1I

    They have an appeal section on their website but that asks for name and address. Should I send the letter instead and state in it that I am the keeper, not the driver? I believe they'll know who the vehicle belongs to and the address as that information was provided when requesting the permit, but I won't tell them anything.

    Cheers,

    gcpal1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th May 17, 5:44 PM
    • 38,962 Posts
    • 77,736 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 18th May 17, 5:44 PM
    • #8
    • 18th May 17, 5:44 PM
    Here are the pictures:

    Sign:

    hxxps://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN5YAincKTzJVjot18qaZHw71L7MA04Qb-uEu63

    Car as was parked:

    hxxps://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOph9SeSPOCczpd74ziOAAomlKONjDuSAQxsa1I

    They have an appeal section on their website but that asks for name and address. Should I send the letter instead and state in it that I am the keeper, not the driver? I believe they'll know who the vehicle belongs to and the address as that information was provided when requesting the permit, but I won't tell them anything.

    Cheers,

    gcpal1
    Originally posted by gcpal1

    You need to give the name and address of the person who is appealing and the PCN number, but you do this from the keeper who may be the registered keeper or the day to day keeper, the latter being the person in charge of the car (but not the driver) on the day of the alleged incident.

    If it requires the name of the driver and gives no other option then you send it first class from a post office counter and get a free proof of posting.
    If there is an option to select keeper then you use that. Be aware that if you amend the online appeal page, it will default back to driver in the drop down box if there is one. Sneakey blighters b'ain't they.

    I can't access those images as it is asking me to log in.

    You should upload them to a web hosting site such as tinypic or photobucket then post the URL here, but change http to hxxp.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 18-05-2017 at 5:47 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • gcpal1
    • By gcpal1 18th May 17, 6:07 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    gcpal1
    • #9
    • 18th May 17, 6:07 PM
    • #9
    • 18th May 17, 6:07 PM
    Sorry here are the pics:

    hxxp://i63.tinypic.com/6saw4m.jpg

    hxxp://i68.tinypic.com/t5hmj4.jpg

    The online appeal doesn't actually request driver name, just 'personal details' and "This form is to be used to enter a challenge against your PCN. It is important that you provide full contact information so that we can respond to your e-mail.". I accessed the appeal page by using the PCN number and the vehicle reg on their website.

    Cheers, gcpal1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th May 17, 6:12 PM
    • 12,722 Posts
    • 19,590 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    http://i63.tinypic.com/6saw4m.jpg

    http://i68.tinypic.com/t5hmj4.jpg
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 18th May 17, 6:16 PM
    • 328 Posts
    • 581 Thanks
    safarmuk
    My partner applied for a permit through PCM (Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd) and the only relevant Ts&Cs from them I can see on the form she signed was the statement "I agree to park my vehicle accordingly to advertised restrictions."
    The first problem is the above, this could be construed as an acceptance of a variation on the lease.

    For me, first and foremost, your leasehold rights cannot be changed via a majority vote of other leaseholders (especially where absence of a vote defaults to a yes vote). In my opinion, only if you agree can your leasehold rights be altered. The absence of a vote defaulting to a "yes" vote seems to be an unashamed attempt by the MA to force this through knowing full well most leaseholders (especially if there is a high proportion of buy to let) won't care or vote.

    Outside of appealing the PCNs etc. using the templates in the sticky threads the best way forward here is to form a group and to take this up with the MA. In reality if the scheme is to stop non-residents parking then by definition, if a resident gets ticketed the MA should tell the PPC to cancel it straight away and this should be put in writing to protect genuine residents. However in most cases the MA wants nothing to do with this scheme (or are advised by the PPC to stay out of it) so wash their hands of it.

    Do you not have allocated bays at your flats?
    • gcpal1
    • By gcpal1 18th May 17, 6:47 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    gcpal1
    The only advertised restrictions are what is mentioned on the sign. I'm not trained in contract law or anything, but I'd be amazed if that sentence on the form that was signed to apply for a parking permit and their sign amounts to a variation on a property lease. Yeah I gather the MA was facing pressure about residents being unable to park and just found any old private parking firm and got them onboard. I'll take this up with my MA but I doubt they'll be very cooperative/willing to get involved.

    There are no allocated bays to a property. There are over 250 flats on the estate and probably space for 120ish vehicles. So getting a private firm in was never really going to solve the parking issue, only cause issues such as this one.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 18th May 17, 7:08 PM
    • 328 Posts
    • 581 Thanks
    safarmuk
    The only advertised restrictions are what is mentioned on the sign. I'm not trained in contract law or anything, but I'd be amazed if that sentence on the form that was signed to apply for a parking permit and their sign amounts to a variation on a property lease.
    I would probably agree that when your partner signed it they thought they had no choice and did not think it was an alteration to your lease. However, don't be surprised - hence my comment - if this is quoted back to you at some point by either the PPC or the MA.

    Under agency law if the MA appointed the PPC then the MA is responsible and liable for the PPC as far as I am aware. As such you should pressurise the MA to take charge of this matter, the objective is to maximise the 120 spaces for residents by removing non-residents, not ticket residents themselves. In reality the MA should have no issue with safeguarding the residents, unfortunately a lot of MAs don't care or don't want to get involved - your job is to make them care.

    My advice is you will fare much better as a coordinated group than as a series of individuals. Why not set up a Facebook group "residents of XYZ", post flyers round the estate and see who joins, when they do you will have a forum to discuss joint concerns you can take forward as a group to the MA.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th May 17, 7:40 PM
    • 45,931 Posts
    • 58,949 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Read hairray's thread and copy & adapt the LBC to the Managing Agent. You should never have allowed this should have objected (the vote was clearly rigged though).

    Why would anyone agree to PCM being allowed near your cars? Tell your fellow residents. Look at the well-known Watchdog clip:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72558256#post72558256

    Presumably you have now read 'NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST' and know to challenge the 'PCN' and to always complain to the landowner (but in this case, you need to tell the Managing Agent that they are liable for derogation from grant, using the examples LBC in the thread by hairray. Easy to find, it was posted on this week.

    Attack. Of course no-one PAYS ex-clampers PCM. How dare the MA ride roughshod over your rights as a leasehold owner.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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