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    • DarkShadow
    • By DarkShadow 16th May 17, 6:41 PM
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    DarkShadow
    Forced parenthood
    • #1
    • 16th May 17, 6:41 PM
    Forced parenthood 16th May 17 at 6:41 PM
    How do you define forced parenthood in your own terms?
    Bank accounts
    Santander : 14 year relationship, 0 problems to date.
Page 3
    • thorsoak
    • By thorsoak 18th May 17, 2:21 PM
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    thorsoak
    Not necessarily in this country now, but there were many families where the wife would be regularly impregnated by the husband who would want sons to carry on his trade/business/line. It does still happen on the Indian continent, where men still demand sons (not daughters) and will carry on until they do have a son.

    That is forced parenthood.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 18th May 17, 2:31 PM
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    TBagpuss
    Isn't there something called 'stealthing' where a gentleman tries to fool the lady that he's using a condom but takes it off during/just before?
    .
    Originally posted by wannabe sybil
    Actually, that would be called rape. If she consented to sex on the basis that he wore a condom then that consent does not extend to consent without one.
    • AubreyMac
    • By AubreyMac 18th May 17, 2:53 PM
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    AubreyMac
    Actually, that would be called rape. If she consented to sex on the basis that he wore a condom then that consent does not extend to consent without one.
    Originally posted by TBagpuss
    What if she did a Ronnie Mitchell and pierced condoms with a safety pin?
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 18th May 17, 2:59 PM
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    TBagpuss
    Yes things can go wrong, with condoms or the pill, but the PP was talking about lying about being on the pill, not refusing to take it. That's just as bad as lying about using a condom (or "stealthing"as it's apparently known as, strange there's not a word for the woman lying about protection).
    Originally posted by zagfles
    not really. The equivalent of a woman lying about being on the pill would be a man lying about having had a vasectomy. Removing a condom part way through is totally different.

    And if someone tells you they are on the pill or have had a vasectomy or hysterectomy or tubal ligation then it is still your choice as to whether you take the risk that they are lying or that the medication r operation isn't fully effective, or whether you take responsibility for yourself and use (or insist your partner uses) a condom as well, as that way you both *know* that you are using protection, rather than one of you hoping that the other is.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 18th May 17, 4:09 PM
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    FBaby
    Problem is that using additional protection when your partner say that are doing so themselves implies an issue with trust. If you don't trust that they are being honest about this why would you trust anything else?

    I think women lying about being on the pill when they know their partner don't want a child are utterly selfish and would have no sympathy for them if their partner left them as a result.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 18th May 17, 5:44 PM
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    zagfles
    I find it very hard to believe that any woman wouldn't realise her partner wasn't wearing a condom.
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    Well, apparently it happens and there's even a special term for it!
    I think lying about taking the pill is only relevant in a long term committed relationship where there is supposed to be complete trust. Before that stage both parties should be taking their own measures and not relying on the other at all.
    Agreed, and great in theory, but in the real world it doesn't always happen. Same if the partner says they haven't got an STD - though I seem to remember a case where someone was prosecuted for having sex when they knew they had an STD?
    Even then, its not 'forced' parenthood because as someone else says above, any adult having consensual sex should realise that there is always a small risk of pregnancy, even if everybody is doing everything they should be doing to prevent it! People have got pregnant on the pill, on implants, on the coil, all sorts.
    Well quite, but like with STDs, deliberately lying about eg using a pill, using a condom, or other protection method should be an offence.

    Proving it of course might be hard, but that applies to a lot of sexual offences.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 18th May 17, 5:52 PM
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    zagfles
    The issue I have with this is, yes, there are a few women who would do that, but they are in the minority.


    However, a large number of men who find themselves becoming a father because of pill failure seem to automatically assume that they've been lied to. The trust they previously had for their partner seems to fly out of the window, despite all contraceptives clearly stating that they have a failure rate. They are not fool proof.


    But there seems to be a bad habit of automatically assuming that the woman lied, rather than accepting that the possibility of contraceptive failure was always there.
    Originally posted by euronorris
    It's probably carelessness most of the time, eg like someone else said about getting the runs, or taking it with other medication, or not taking it at the right time etc, these things are all warned about in the leaflet. Or simply forgetting.

    My wife was on a type of pill for a while that had to be taken within a tight window, but she's very good at that sort of thing. I'm on medication and sometimes forget to take it, luckily not the type of medication that matters if you miss the occasional one.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 18th May 17, 6:08 PM
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    zagfles
    not really. The equivalent of a woman lying about being on the pill would be a man lying about having had a vasectomy. Removing a condom part way through is totally different.
    Originally posted by TBagpuss
    It's not significantly different - you consent to sex on the basis of your partner using contraception - what's the difference what form that contraception takes? I suppose there's a point re STDs, but not pregnancy.

    A bloke putting on a condom and then whipping it off when she wasn't looking would be a bit like a woman showing her partner putting a pill in her mouth but then spitting it out when he's not looking!
    And if someone tells you they are on the pill or have had a vasectomy or hysterectomy or tubal ligation then it is still your choice as to whether you take the risk that they are lying or that the medication r operation isn't fully effective, or whether you take responsibility for yourself and use (or insist your partner uses) a condom as well, as that way you both *know* that you are using protection, rather than one of you hoping that the other is.
    I suppose with a condom if you check carefully you can be sure it's not been removed. Depending on the, er, position I guess! Maybe only use positions where you can keep an eye on things all the time, if you don't trust your partner 100%!

    And of course condoms can come off by accident too.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 18th May 17, 7:11 PM
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    Red-Squirrel
    It's not significantly different - you consent to sex on the basis of your partner using contraception - what's the difference what form that contraception takes? I suppose there's a point re STDs, but not pregnancy.

    A bloke putting on a condom and then whipping it off when she wasn't looking would be a bit like a woman showing her partner putting a pill in her mouth but then spitting it out when he's not looking.
    Originally posted by zagfles
    But the STD thing makes it totally different! Whether a woman takes a pill or not, the man should know he takes a risk she will get pregnant if he has sex with her, what changes is the level of that same risk.

    If a man removes a condom without the woman's consent, he could be exposing her to illnesses that could risk her fertility, that could be life changing or even life shortening, that she has not agreed to take a chance on, as the man has with pregnancy.
    Last edited by Red-Squirrel; 18-05-2017 at 7:21 PM.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 18th May 17, 7:29 PM
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    zagfles
    But the STD thing makes it totally different! Whether a woman takes a pill or not, the man should know he takes a risk she will get pregnant if he has sex with her, what changes is the level of that same risk.

    If a man removes a condom without the woman's consent, he could be exposing her to illnesses that could risk her fertility, that could be life changing or even life shortening, that she has not agreed to take a chance on, as the man has with pregnancy.
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    OK, so what if the man is sure that he has no STDs, for instance he's a virgin, or he's been medically checked out, or it's with a long term partner who he's been exclusive with and they've previously had unprotected sex and now she wants him to wear a condom for whatever reason (eg she's come off the pill). Does that now make it OK?

    I somehow doubt it
    • GwylimT
    • By GwylimT 18th May 17, 7:35 PM
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    GwylimT
    OK, so what if the man is sure that he has no STDs, for instance he's a virgin, or he's been medically checked out, or it's with a long term partner who he's been exclusive with and they've previously had unprotected sex and now she wants him to wear a condom for whatever reason (eg she's come off the pill). Does that now make it OK?

    I somehow doubt it
    Originally posted by zagfles
    Of course not, if the agreement is condom or no sex, either party doing otherwise is a scumbag who is in the wrong.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 18th May 17, 8:22 PM
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    Red-Squirrel
    OK, so what if the man is sure that he has no STDs, for instance he's a virgin, or he's been medically checked out, or it's with a long term partner who he's been exclusive with and they've previously had unprotected sex and now she wants him to wear a condom for whatever reason (eg she's come off the pill). Does that now make it OK?

    I somehow doubt it
    Originally posted by zagfles
    Of course it's not ok! It's not quite as bad but it would never be ok!

    I don't get the wink?
    • Hard Up Hester
    • By Hard Up Hester 18th May 17, 8:31 PM
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    Hard Up Hester
    Maybe the wink should have A instead of I, then a condom would be unnecessary.
    Chin up, Titus out.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 18th May 17, 8:42 PM
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    zagfles
    Of course it's not ok! It's not quite as bad but it would never be ok!
    Originally posted by Red-Squirrel
    Well exactly - so it's not "totally different" to pretending to use other forms of fertility protection then is it.
    I don't get the wink?
    Sorry probably wrong emotion. Your arguments seemed disingenous - once you eliminate the STD issue, then pretending to use a pill, a condom, a femidom, a coil, pretending to have had a vasectomy, all come down to the same thing - your partner thinks you're providing protection when you aren't. Whether a man or woman does it - it's equally wrong.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 18th May 17, 9:00 PM
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    Red-Squirrel
    Well exactly - so it's not "totally different" to pretending to use other forms of fertility protection then is it.Sorry probably wrong emotion. Your arguments seemed disingenous - once you eliminate the STD issue, then pretending to use a pill, a condom, a femidom, a coil, pretending to have had a vasectomy, all come down to the same thing - your partner thinks you're providing protection when you aren't. Whether a man or woman does it - it's equally wrong.
    Originally posted by zagfles
    I never said it was ok for a woman to do it though! I just think it's different and not so bad as the condom thing.
    • wannabe sybil
    • By wannabe sybil 18th May 17, 9:21 PM
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    wannabe sybil
    The Mirror thinks that 'stealthing' is a thing as well.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/health/man-who-enjoys-sick-stealthing-10450628

    I feel it's a bit like putting a woman 'in her place'. It takes away informed consent.
    Ankh Morpork Sunshine Sanctuary for Sick Dragons - don't let my flame go out!
    • Robisere
    • By Robisere 18th May 17, 10:28 PM
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    Robisere
    Two events many years ago in my life come to mind with this topic.

    First was when I was 17 and believed I was a Man Of The World, as do most lads from any generation I think. I met a gorgeous girl at a party, we started snogging at Postman's Knock (yes it's a long time ago!) and she asked me to see her the following night. I took her to a fairground and then intended taking her to my house, my parents being away for the weekend. As we walked out of the Fair, a mate shouted me back and told me she was 12 years old. No one who did not know that would have believed it: she was as well developed as any girl of 18 or 19, her conversation was adult and her dress and make up flawless. I returned to her and told her I knew her age, expecting tears. She simply shrugged her shoulders and went back to the Fair. I felt sick when I thought of what might have been, but it taught me one lesson.

    The second lesson happened when I was a young soldier of 19. I met a 19 year old Uni student and we had a great time together, I saw her whenever I came home on leave. Eventually she was fitted for a coil and we made love at every opportunity. Then she began making noises about leaving Uni and getting married. I was a right ratbag and told her I wasn't ready for that at 20, (which I wasn't then, I was very immature) but she seemed to accept it and we carried on. Unbeknown to me, she had the coil removed and the inevitable happened. When she told me she was pregnant, I did what lads were expected to do then: told her I would meet her folks and marry her. It turned out that her family was much wealthier than mine: they had a huge house and the meeting was frosty. They made it obvious that they believed I had seduced their daughter, when in fact it was a completely consensual arrangement. I told them about the coil removal and her bullying, pretentious dad then said that I was not wanted in that family.

    I left, having said that I had given my intention to marry their daughter. Just before I returned from leave, I received a letter from her, to say that we were done and she was having an abortion. It was not for some years afterwards that this impacted upon me, after a breakup and being ejected from home and having to leave my two kids. I looked back at my life and felt massive regret: I wished that I could have gone back that 17 year old me and told him what could happen. Fortunately, I met and married a wonderful woman and we have two great kids, with 4 smashing grandchildren, but what happened at 17 and 20, will always haunt me. I think that the kind of guy who gets someone pregnant by removing a condom, may also come to feel that regret when he looks back. I am not proud of any of this history, in fact I am ashamed of the young me.
    There may be more than one way to skin a cat.
    But the result is always inedible.

    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 18th May 17, 10:54 PM
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    zagfles
    Two events many years ago in my life come to mind with this topic.

    First was when I was 17 and believed I was a Man Of The World, as do most lads from any generation I think. I met a gorgeous girl at a party, we started snogging at Postman's Knock (yes it's a long time ago!) and she asked me to see her the following night. I took her to a fairground and then intended taking her to my house, my parents being away for the weekend. As we walked out of the Fair, a mate shouted me back and told me she was 12 years old. No one who did not know that would have believed it: she was as well developed as any girl of 18 or 19, her conversation was adult and her dress and make up flawless. I returned to her and told her I knew her age, expecting tears. She simply shrugged her shoulders and went back to the Fair. I felt sick when I thought of what might have been, but it taught me one lesson.
    Originally posted by Robisere
    There was a case recently where a bloke got let off for sex with a minor (think a 12 year old) because of a similar thing - apparently this girl had been let into clubs, seen by police no-one suspected she was anywhere near underage.

    Of course this isn't the usual situation. Just think of it as a lucky escape, you didn't deliberately do anything wrong. Don't feel guilt - it's pointless. As you say it was a valuable lesson.
    The second lesson happened when I was a young soldier of 19. I met a 19 year old Uni student and we had a great time together, I saw her whenever I came home on leave. Eventually she was fitted for a coil and we made love at every opportunity. Then she began making noises about leaving Uni and getting married. I was a right ratbag and told her I wasn't ready for that at 20, (which I wasn't then, I was very immature)
    Why do you think that's being a "ratbag", you were honest, it's better than stringing her along.
    but she seemed to accept it and we carried on. Unbeknown to me, she had the coil removed and the inevitable happened. When she told me she was pregnant, I did what lads were expected to do then: told her I would meet her folks and marry her. It turned out that her family was much wealthier than mine: they had a huge house and the meeting was frosty. They made it obvious that they believed I had seduced their daughter, when in fact it was a completely consensual arrangement. I told them about the coil removal and her bullying, pretentious dad then said that I was not wanted in that family.
    It sounds like he did you a big favour. Would you really have wanted to marry someone who abused you in this way? She's no better than a man who "stealthes"
    I left, having said that I had given my intention to marry their daughter. Just before I returned from leave, I received a letter from her, to say that we were done and she was having an abortion.
    Are you sure this actually happened, and she did really remove the coil and get pregnant? Or was she trying to manipulate you? Either way - you escaped an abusive relationship.
    It was not for some years afterwards that this impacted upon me, after a breakup and being ejected from home and having to leave my two kids. I looked back at my life and felt massive regret: I wished that I could have gone back that 17 year old me and told him what could happen.
    The best way to learn is through experience. You can tell kids the dangers till you're blue in the face, but at that age they rarely listen until they get close to experiencing things. You had traumatic experiences but it likely made you stronger and more aware for the future. Had you not had them, you could have been less aware and made worse mistakes in the future.
    Fortunately, I met and married a wonderful woman and we have two great kids, with 4 smashing grandchildren, but what happened at 17 and 20, will always haunt me. I think that the kind of guy who gets someone pregnant by removing a condom, may also come to feel that regret when he looks back. I am not proud of any of this history, in fact I am ashamed of the young me.
    I think you should try to drop the guilt - you don't have anything to feel guilty about. I know it's hard, but like sliding door if these things hadn't happened to you your current life could have been vastly different.
    Last edited by zagfles; 18-05-2017 at 10:57 PM.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 19th May 17, 7:27 AM
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    Pixie5740
    If it's the same recent case you're thinking about he met the 12 year old girl at a taxi rank.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/737903/support-group-blasts-judges-shock-ruling-to-let-student-walk-free-after-he-admitted-raping-12-year-old-girl-in-edinburgh/amp/
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • Judi
    • By Judi 19th May 17, 8:31 AM
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    Judi
    I've tried to instill in my kids to take control of their own fertility. Ok there aren't nowhere nearly enough options for a man but that's where love and trust comes in and casual sex goes out the window.
    'Holy crap on a cracker!'
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