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    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 15th May 17, 10:05 AM
    • 22Posts
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    stevecot1983
    Civil Enforcement Ltd CCJ's
    • #1
    • 15th May 17, 10:05 AM
    Civil Enforcement Ltd CCJ's 15th May 17 at 10:05 AM
    Hi All

    I have read numerous post over the weekend here and on other forums and I have now completely confused/don't know what path to take.

    On Friday a prospective employer told me I had two CCJ's outstanding against my name, which I was completely unaware of - they were issued to a previous address, they do not appear on any of my credit files (according to Credit Expert its because the address hasn't been linked to my name but I can see it on the linked addresses part)

    After checking with Trust Online, and calling the courts (most unhelpful to begin with) I have found out these relate to Civil Enforcement Ltd.

    I have never received any correspondence from CEL or anyone acting on their behalf, after some googling I have found out this is a parking firm

    Timeline:
    Moved out of previous address in September 2012
    Updated my licence and log book October 2012 (no longer have to log book but my licence is dated October 2012 and was sent at the same time as my log book)
    Entered on the Electoral Register at current address November 2012
    CCJ's were issued in June and August 2015

    I lived in the property for about a year and in that time I had two vehicles registered there one which was sold in March 2012 the other I part exchanged in October 2013. The second was the one I had when moving to my current property in 2012.

    I believe I can try and get these set aside but after researching over the weekend I am feeling very out of my depth with all of this.

    How can I get the court paper work and particulars of the claim?
    I've tried contacting CEL on the telephone but I just get a voicemail, so how can I find out what vehicle this relates to, copies of the invoices/letters they sent etc?

    Because of the work I do the most important thing to me is having these removed from any records.

    Any help will be appreciated and apologies for posting yet another thread on this subject.
    Thanks
    Last edited by stevecot1983; 15-05-2017 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Change of details
Page 2
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 16th May 17, 3:56 PM
    • 7,152 Posts
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    pappa golf
    an average day in CC land , look at all the set asides http://www.bmpa.eu/court.html


    returned or binned , if no responce is receved within 14 days (I think) then a computer says DEFAULT <FULL STOP>

    I would slightly disagree. The Data Protection Act requires that information must be both accurate & up to date. Be an interesting one to pass to the Information Commissioner - that could force them to double check



    no UK law states that papers must be sent to the last KNOWN address
    Last edited by pappa golf; 16-05-2017 at 4:00 PM.
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 16th May 17, 4:42 PM
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    stevecot1983
    Assume that CEL never sent anything. Don't assume your neighbours took it.
    In court CEL would have to prove the former. Don't suggest they might have sent it but it may have been taken once delivered. It won't hurt the keeper's case, but why let the scammers off the hook?

    In May 2012, only the driver could be held liable, not the keeper. Focus on this and the fact that in 2015 the scammers have tried to retrospectively apply an act of parliament that did not actually exist at the time. So even if the scammers did send anything to the keeper, the driver and only the driver was liable.
    There was no requirement in law for the keeper to respond to this.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Thanks Fruit Cake, I have amended the witness statement based on the new info from the court, do I send it all to the court with the form and should I include any supporting evidence, ie electorall roll letters or should I just send the arguments for a set aside?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 8:49 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Certainly mention the date (May 2012) which is pre-POFA. As keeper, you could not be held liable under any applicable rule of law - and had this case been aired in court it would have had no prospects of success.

    You should provide evidence of why the letters were not served and evidence as to why you may not have been/were unlikely to have been the driver in May 2012 (old insurance policy showing more than one driver?). And a copy of Schedule 4 showing that it was only enacted in Oct 2012. Prior to that there was no keeper liability and even if CEL had issued a Notice to Keeper after that date for a parking event, it is known that CEL do not use and have never used the statute in question, so cannot claim 'keeper liability' in any case.

    You know you could always send a pm to saggi and ask for his/her claim number, date of decision and court/Judge.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 16th May 17, 9:00 PM
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    stevecot1983
    Certainly mention the date (May 2012) which is pre-POFA. As keeper, you could not be held liable under any applicable rule of law - and had this case been aired in court it would have had no prospects of success.

    You should provide evidence of why the letters were not served and evidence as to why you may not have been/were unlikely to have been the driver in May 2012 (old insurance policy showing more than one driver?). And a copy of Schedule 4 showing that it was only enacted in Oct 2012. Prior to that there was no keeper liability and even if CEL had issued a Notice to Keeper after that date for a parking event, it is known that CEL do not use and have never used the statute in question, so cannot claim 'keeper liability' in any case.

    You know you could always send a pm to saggi and ask for his/her claim number, date of decision and court/Judge.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks Coupon-Mad, I will try and contact Saggi and ask for these details. When you say evidence to why the letters where not served, do you mean the court papers or the letters from CEL? If the later I'm not sure what evidence I could provide. I also don't think I have any old policies from that time (it was 5 years ago) I don't even think I would have had them in 2015 when the claim forms were issued. However I will do some digging and may come up with something. Sorry to check again shall I send this all with the N244 form, if so I'm guessing two copies (one for the court one for the Claimant?)

    Thanks again for the help on this!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 9:06 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Whatever evidence you can show that explains why either the letters and/or the claim didn't arrive and that you acted immediately you learned about the CCJ. And you have to show (or state with conviction, as truth) that you not only have prospects of defending this claim but that it should be struck out and your £255 refunded by the claimant, for pursuing a keeper who cannot be held liable in law.

    The Judge may not be familiar with the POFA and might assume the parking firm starts with the moral high ground. Your job is to demolish their position.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 16th May 17, 9:23 PM
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    stevecot1983
    I am now confident with the defence other than not having anything as yet to prove there could have been more than one driver, I will also have a copy of the relevant section of POFA with me at the hearing.

    I can prove by way of a letter showing that I was entered on to the electoral register at my current property in November 2012, I can show that my licence was updated in Oct 2012 but cannot show the log book as the car has since been part exchanged.

    I can show that I acted immediately after finding out about the CCJ's especially as they do not appear on my credit reports from any of the credit agencies and will take copies to the hearing.

    I'm just not sure how to prove I never received the first or subsequent communications from CEL.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th May 17, 9:42 PM
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    Umkomaas
    I'm just not sure how to prove I never received the first or subsequent communications from CEL.
    You can't prove a negative.

    Put CEL to strict proof that they posted such communications.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 10:32 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Agreed. The burden is theirs. Like I said, your job is this: ''show (or state with conviction, as truth)''.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 16th May 17, 10:39 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    stevecot1983
    So I have found the insurance docs from 2012 (thank god i never delete my emails) downside is at that time I didn't have a named driver but I know one or two people used the car and were covered on their own insurance policies.

    I also found the insurance docs that were sent to me after changing my address, although as Papa has said they only have to send the claims to the last known address.

    Umkomaas not sure I quite understand this:
    Put CEL to strict proof that they posted such communications.
    How would I do that? In the witness statement or at the hearing?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 10:43 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Both, you say 'I put the claimant to strict proof that...' then it is also discussed at the hearing. But I really think the main thing is 'no keeper liability' even if the letters were served (how does it matter?). You can't be liable, this is a vexatious and unreasonable 'punt' of a claim and ask the Judge why you should be £255 (plus loss of earnings/travel for attending a hearing) out of pocket due to this rogue, speculative claim?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 16th May 17, 11:14 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stevecot1983
    Again thank you all for the help. I think I am ready to get these in the post tomorrow

    ask the Judge why you should be £255 (plus loss of earnings/travel for attending a hearing) out of pocket due to this rogue, speculative claim?
    Frustratingly I have to make two separate applications so potentially £510 out of pocket + two days off work + travel.

    Could I ask you please to take one last check over my witness statement before I get it in the post, the two applications will have almost identical witness statements just amended dates and case numbers.

    I am xxx of xxx and I am the Defendant in this matter.
    This is my statement to support my application dated xx May 2017 to:
    1. Set aside the Default Judgement xxxx dated xx August 2015 as it was not properly served at my current address.
    2. Order for the original claim to be dismissed
    3. Order the claimant to pay the defendant £255 as reimbursement for the set aside fee and for loss of earnings approx. £xxx per day.

    1. DEFAULT JUDGEMENT

    1. I understand that the claimant a Default Judgement against me as the Defendant in August 2015. The claim form was not served at my current address and thus I was not aware of the Default Judgement until a prospective employer made me aware on xx May 2017. I understand that these claims were served at an old address (xxx). In support of this I can provide confirmation from xx Council showing my entry on the electoral register in November 2012 at my current address.

    2. As this default does not appear on any of my credit files I obtained the details from Registry Trust Limited and made contact with the issuing court on xx May 2017 to gather more details, at the time I was advised the Claimant’s name, a reference number and contact telephone number.

    3. On the xxth May 2017 I contacted the Court to request further detail of the Default Judgement. The particulars of the claim only give the “Outstanding Debt and Damages” as the reason for the Claim, in support I can provide the details the court has emailed to me.

    4. I have never received any previous documentation from the Claimant in this matter and I was never able to properly challenge the Claimant’s claim. Further I put the Claimant to strict proof that they did post such communications to the Defendants address.


    5. I have made several unsuccessful attempts to contact a member of the Claimants staff via telephone on 12 May 2017 and 15 May 2017 using the number provided to me by the County Court Business Centre.

    6. I believe the Claimant has behaved unreasonably in pursuing the claim against me without ensuring they held the Defendants current and correct contact details. According to publicly available information my circumstances are far from being unique. The Claimant’s persistent failure to use correct and current addresses results is an unnecessary burden for individuals and the justice system across the country.

    7. Furthermore, Prime Minister May publicly pledged to investigate “abuse” of the CCJ System and so called “Credit Clamping” as reported in the Daily Mail article dated 12 September 2016. The Right Honourable Sir Oliver Heald on 23 December 2016 "announced a crackdown on unresolved debts which can damage people’s credit ratings without them knowing. The action comes after concerns were raised that companies were issuing claims to consumers using incorrect addresses."

    8. On the basis provided above I would suggest that the Claimant did not fulfil their duty to use the Defendants current address when bringing the claim.

    9. Considering all of the above I was unable to defend this claim properly. I believe that the Default Judgement against me was issued incorrectly and thus should be set aside.

    2. ORDER DISMISSING THE CLAIM

    1. I understand that the Claimant is a Parking Company which seeks to claim for “Parking Charge Notices” which the Claimant believes are due as a result of an alleged breach of contract for parking by a motorist.

    2. If the Claimant has obtained details of the vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper, and used those details to make a claim for a “Parking Charge Notice”, I thus dispute the claim in its entirety as I do not know the wording of the contract nor do I know the means by which the contract was alleged to come into force.

    3. I further believe this Claim relates to a “Parking Charge Notice” issued on 28 May 2012 and therefore the Schedule 4 of Protection Of Freedom Act 2012 does not apply and the Registered Keeper of the vehicle cannot be held liable where a breach of contract may have occurred by a driver of a vehicle the Defendant is the Registered Keeper and where said keeper is unable to identify the driver.

    4. For the Claimant to have obliged the Defendant to provide the drivers details at the time of said breach the Claimant would be required to apply for a “Norwich Pharmacal Order”, I am not aware of any such order being made upon the Defendant.

    5. Furthermore, given the time delay of approximately three years between the alleged breach of contract and the date of this Claim it is unreasonable to expect the Defendant to have a record of who was driving the vehicle at the time of the offence.

    6. I further submit that the Claimant’s claim is without merit due to substantial issues in law. This is for the following main reasons:

    1. Lack of Standing by Claimant: The Claimant is unlikely to be the landowner of the car park in question, and will have no proprietary interest in it. This means that the Claimant, as a matter of law, will have no locus standi to litigate in their own name. Any consideration will have been provided by the landholder, and only they would have been able sue for any damages or trespass.

    2. No contract with the claimant: Any contract must have offer, acceptance and consideration both ways. There would not have been consideration from the Claimant to the motorist; the fee for parking benefits the landowners, not the Claimant. Therefore, there is no consideration from the motorist to Civil Enforcement Ltd.

    3. On this basis I believe that the Claimant has not provided any reasonable cause of action and thus the claim should be dismissed in its entirety.

    7. In order to make informed decisions and statements in my defence as keeper of a vehicle, I will require copies of all paperwork and pictures of all signs from the Claimant. 


    Statement of Truth:
    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.
    Full Name: xxxxx
    Dated 16/5/2017
    Signed……………………………………….
    Last edited by stevecot1983; 16-05-2017 at 11:15 PM. Reason: Delete a sentence
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 11:28 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Looks good to go - I feel for you and I hope the Judge sees this trash for what it is and awards your costs.

    I would remove #4 (not relevant and don't give the claimant ideas):


    4. For the Claimant to have obliged the Defendant to provide the drivers details at the time of said breach the Claimant would be required to apply for a “Norwich Pharmacal Order”, I am not aware of any such order being made upon the Defendant.


    5. Furthermore, given the time delay of approximately three five years between the alleged breach of contract and the date of this Claim it is unreasonable to expect the Defendant to have a record of who was driving the vehicle at the time of the offence.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 16th May 17, 11:50 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    stevecot1983
    Thanks coupon-mad I will make them changes. I'm so glad I posted on here I was going to pay up to have them show as satisfied but would have lost out on a job and a potential mortgage.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th May 17, 12:32 AM
    • 14,740 Posts
    • 18,527 Thanks
    Redx
    So I have found the insurance docs from 2012 (thank god i never delete my emails) downside is at that time I didn't have a named driver but I know one or two people used the car and were covered on their own insurance policies.
    Originally posted by stevecot1983
    agreed , I could have been driving the car on the day in question using my insurance policy

    or a mechanic could have been driving the vehicle on the day in question, on a garage or trade policy (service , MOT , repairs etc)

    they can only pursue the actual driver if they know who that actual driver is and can prove it in court , with evidence

    most people wont have a clue who was driving, certainly not the PPC , so no POFA2012 at the time so no KEEPER liability (as long as the actual driver was never disclosed)

    let us hope you get the CCJ,s overturned , they lose in court and it costs them hundreds if not thousands of pounds in legal fees etc
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 17th May 17, 12:04 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stevecot1983
    Again thanks for all the help, I have sent the forms off today recorded delivery I sent two copies of everything and included any evidence to support my set aside and defense.

    I will keep you all posted on the status.
    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 18th May 17, 11:39 AM
    • 22 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stevecot1983
    N244 Set aside Fees
    So yesterday I posted the my N244 forms of to the courts, today I called the Money Claims Centre to see about paying the set aside fee and they said did I include a covering letter in my pack, I said no there's nothing on the guidance notes about having to include a covering letter to pay on a card. So basically I now have to reprint everything and resend the lot with a covering letter.

    So if anyone else wants to pay by card just be aware you must include a covering letter and include a contact telephone number.

    I need to check with the Business Claims Centre that this is the same story with them.

    CCBC accept card payments over the phone as long as you have the original claim number, they also accept the N244 forms by email, but its worth checking with the operator before sending them by email.
    Last edited by stevecot1983; 18-05-2017 at 4:49 PM. Reason: correction
    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 9th Jun 17, 10:34 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stevecot1983
    Hi All

    Just thought I would give a quick update, I have a date for one of these claims but won't be heard until September 2017, the other has just been transferred to my local CC so hopefully will receive a hearing date for that in the next couple of days.

    I also have finally received the original claim form for the second claim, it can be viewed here:
    https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApOTXrEJgLIAhu9fe-2zbSGArdIK4w

    The breach was in a Coop car park so this looks like a revenge claim for Coop cancelling the contract.
    It was on the 4 October 2012, this was after I had moved out of the property the CCJ was issued at but I know I sent my log book of for updating as soon as I moved into my current property (my licence went at the same time and that was re-issued on the 19 October 2012). As I no longer have the vehicle I and never kept a copy of the log book I cannot say for sure when the log book was issued to the new address.

    I have managed to get the street view images of said car park that were taken in May 2012 and have added them to a Word document, on one of the car park entrances there is no signage at all.

    Given that I now know the date that the allegd breach took place is after the POFA came into force, this means the defence I submitted to the court as part of my set aside application is now not valid. CEL have not attached a copy of any correspondance to the claim form so I cannot forsure say whether they complied with the POFA when they issued the paper work to my previous property. Any advice on this point would be much appreciated.
    Last edited by stevecot1983; 09-06-2017 at 10:40 PM. Reason: updated link
    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 13th Jun 17, 7:36 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stevecot1983
    Any ideas or help anyone? Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 17, 7:41 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Given that I now know the date that the allegd breach took place is after the POFA came into force, this means the defence I submitted to the court as part of my set aside application is now not valid.
    Yes it is. In fact schedule 4 of the POFA was not really fully (for practical purposes) in force until the BPA were able to prove that they had an appeals system in place, and I am sure that was weeks later when POPLA started (November 2012, I think?).

    And, CEL never used POFA wording, so their NTK was always a non-POFA one with no keeper liability possible. Same as any pre-POFA case.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • stevecot1983
    • By stevecot1983 13th Jun 17, 7:47 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stevecot1983
    Thanks coupon mad. So I shall continue with the defence that this is a pre pofa case. One other thing, not sure if anyone on here can answer this but can I request from the DVLA the details of when they updated the address on my log book? I no longer own the vehicle. I'm convinced it was pre October 2012.
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