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  • FIRST POST
    • happyc84
    • By happyc84 9th May 17, 8:53 PM
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    happyc84
    cyclist vs pedestrian - who has right of way
    • #1
    • 9th May 17, 8:53 PM
    cyclist vs pedestrian - who has right of way 9th May 17 at 8:53 PM
    we out for a lovely scenic walk along the riverside. Path designated for both users, but tbh, at times it feels like the people who are walking are target practice for those on 2 wheels.

    If only the cyclists would treat the pedestrians with the same care they expect from others. In fact to would be better if we had different paths.
    Rant over!!!

    How best to solve this problem? other than poking them with a big stick.
Page 4
    • takman
    • By takman 17th May 17, 10:00 AM
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    takman
    Only when the midlife crisis groups are failing to follow the Highway Code and are cycling two and three abreast, or failing to use the cycle paths the local authority has spent millions providing.
    Originally posted by Altarf
    I much prefer cyclists to be cycling next to each other in one big group so they are easier to overtake. If they all cycle in a line then a group of them can be quite difficult to overtake on a windy road.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 17th May 17, 11:08 AM
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    Pyxis
    Driving home late last night, I encountered a cyclist on two occasions coming towards me with NO LIGHTS AT ALL.

    I usually encounter at least one bike with no lights every time I drive at night.

    What goes through the minds of these people?
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..

    X ~O
    • esuhl
    • By esuhl 17th May 17, 3:28 PM
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    esuhl
    Driving home late last night, I encountered a cyclist on two occasions coming towards me with NO LIGHTS AT ALL.

    I usually encounter at least one bike with no lights every time I drive at night.

    What goes through the minds of these people?
    Originally posted by Pyxis
    Other road users are a menace! As you say, you really wonder about some people.

    Round here we get car drivers jumping red lights and rat-running through the village at double the speed limit.

    The council spent millions building a bypass with a 50mph limit, but selfish motorists won't use the facilities that have been built for them. Two elderly people have already been hit by speeding rat-runners on the zebra crossing in a 20mph zone.

    At least cyclists without lights aren't endangering other people's lives -- just their own.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 17th May 17, 5:17 PM
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    unholyangel
    Other road users are a menace! As you say, you really wonder about some people.

    Round here we get car drivers jumping red lights and rat-running through the village at double the speed limit.

    The council spent millions building a bypass with a 50mph limit, but selfish motorists won't use the facilities that have been built for them. Two elderly people have already been hit by speeding rat-runners on the zebra crossing in a 20mph zone.

    At least cyclists without lights aren't endangering other people's lives -- just their own.
    Originally posted by esuhl
    I don't think the part in bold is true. The most obvious danger is to their own life but its not the only danger. They could knock a pedestrian off their feet, or could easily cause a RTA when a driver has to suddenly take evasive action to avoid them because of the bad visibility.
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    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 17th May 17, 5:20 PM
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    Pyxis
    I don't think the part in bold is true. The most obvious danger is to their own life but its not the only danger. They could knock a pedestrian off their feet, or could easily cause a RTA when a driver has to suddenly take evasive action to avoid them because of the bad visibility.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Not to mention damage to car/property.
    Plus, the driver will still be at fault, however invisible the cyclist was.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..

    X ~O
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 17th May 17, 7:58 PM
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    unholyangel
    Not to mention damage to car/property.
    Plus, the driver will still be at fault, however invisible the cyclist was.
    Originally posted by Pyxis
    Wondering if this is a variation on the misconception that drivers are always at fault for incidents involving pedestrians? Or was it a more tongue in cheek comment?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 17th May 17, 8:02 PM
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    Pyxis
    Wondering if this is a variation on the misconception that drivers are always at fault for incidents involving pedestrians? Or was it a more tongue in cheek comment?
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    No, I got it from a policeman a couple of weeks ago, when this very question came up at a road safety seminar I was attending.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..

    X ~O
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 17th May 17, 8:15 PM
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    unholyangel
    No, I got it from a policeman a couple of weeks ago, when this very question came up at a road safety seminar I was attending.
    Originally posted by Pyxis
    What was the question? Who's fault if you're in a collision with a cyclist?

    Unless he said it would depend on circumstances, I'd seek a 2nd opinion elsewhere. There is no presumed liability in "uk" law - bike campaigners are pushing for it (have been since the 90's tbh) but it hasn't been enacted or even discussed in parliament afaik.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 17th May 17, 8:33 PM
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    Pyxis
    No, I got it from a policeman a couple of weeks ago, when this very question came up at a road safety seminar I was attending.
    Originally posted by Pyxis
    What was the question? Who's fault if you're in a collision with a cyclist?

    Unless he said it would depend on circumstances, I'd seek a 2nd opinion elsewhere. There is no presumed liability in "uk" law - bike campaigners are pushing for it (have been since the 90's tbh) but it hasn't been enacted or even discussed in parliament afaik.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    He did add that the cyclist would be dealt with as well, for riding without lights, but he was adamant that the car-driver would be charged with something like driving without due care and attention, or similar.

    Some of the audience did question this, but his answer was always the same.

    I suppose that the reasoning would be that even if the cyclist had no lights, if the driver was driving at a speed commensurate with the conditions, and paying proper attention to the road ahead, he would see the cyclist in his headlights.


    There is one road I travel down on my way home, which isn't very well lit, it is narrow, with parked cars along one side. It is a route for people walking back from a theatre/cinema complex, possibly after having had drinks in the bar too. Those people are very rarely dressed in light clothing, and have a tendency to jay-walk and cross the road suddenly.

    They are very hard to spot in the distance.
    Add into the mix a couple of cyclists with either no lights or feeble lights, and you will understand why I creep along this road at 15-20 mph, at night, when the speed limit is 30.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..

    X ~O
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 18th May 17, 8:45 AM
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    NBLondon
    I was under the impression that on a pedestrian crossing (zebra or pelican) the pedestrian definitely does have right of way. Maybe it's a London thing - but I do find a significant minority of cyclists assume that they can ride through as long as they don't actually hit any pedestrians.... Less than an hour ago, I was on a zebra with traffic stopped and a cyclist decided to overtake sorry "filter" past the stopped cars, onto the zebra across in front of me and a woman crossing in the opposite direction, then up the dropped kerb to continue filtering along the pavement. All at the same speed.

    MAMIL? No. Courier with a Mad Max fixation? No. 20-something woman in Primark velour track suit and headphones.
    One day I'll think of something witty - Apparently I have!
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 18th May 17, 9:16 AM
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    Pyxis
    I was under the impression that on a pedestrian crossing (zebra or pelican) the pedestrian definitely does have right of way. Maybe it's a London thing - but I do find a significant minority of cyclists assume that they can ride through as long as they don't actually hit any pedestrians.... Less than an hour ago, I was on a zebra with traffic stopped and a cyclist decided to overtake sorry "filter" past the stopped cars, onto the zebra across in front of me and a woman crossing in the opposite direction, then up the dropped kerb to continue filtering along the pavement. All at the same speed.

    MAMIL? No. Courier with a Mad Max fixation? No. 20-something woman in Primark velour track suit and headphones.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    I am pretty sure you are right, that the pedestrian does have right of way on a zebra crossing. In fact, I think it is also the case that if there is a pedestrian waiting to cross at a zebra crossing, cars are obliged to stop.


    I'll see if I can find out for sure.


    I know that in a lot of countries on the continent, the pedestrian does not have right of way on a zebra crossing, or the same right to halt traffic; the crossing is just advisory, so you have to take the law (and your life!) into your own hands sometimes, in order to get across, or else you could be there all day!




    Edit....
    The Highway Code confirms that pedestrians do have right of way once they have stepped onto the crossing.
    If they haven't yet stepped on, it just says to be ready to slow down or stop to them cross.



    "195
    Zebra crossings.
    As you approach a zebra crossing
    look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross
    you MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto a crossing

    allow more time for stopping on wet or icy roads
    do not wave or use your horn to invite pedestrians across; this could be dangerous if another vehicle is approaching
    be aware of pedestrians approaching from the side of the crossing.
    A zebra crossing with a central island is two separate crossings (see pictures in Crossings (18 to 30)).
    Law ZPPPCRGD reg 25"
    Last edited by Pyxis; 18-05-2017 at 9:26 AM.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..

    X ~O
    • bubblesbonbon
    • By bubblesbonbon 18th May 17, 9:23 AM
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    bubblesbonbon
    I was under the impression that on a pedestrian crossing (zebra or pelican) the pedestrian definitely does have right of way. Maybe it's a London thing - but I do find a significant minority of cyclists assume that they can ride through as long as they don't actually hit any pedestrians.... Less than an hour ago, I was on a zebra with traffic stopped and a cyclist decided to overtake sorry "filter" past the stopped cars, onto the zebra across in front of me and a woman crossing in the opposite direction, then up the dropped kerb to continue filtering along the pavement. All at the same speed.

    MAMIL? No. Courier with a Mad Max fixation? No. 20-something woman in Primark velour track suit and headphones.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossing Regulations and general Directions (1997) give direction on the regulatory frameworks surrounding crossings.

    • Zebra crossings give pedestrians priority over vehicles on the carriageway

    • Cyclists are vehicles and are permitted to ride on the part of a Zebra crossing that is carriageway, provided they give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross.

    • It is not illegal to cycle across a Zebra crossing if there is shared-use to either side, but it is contrary to Rule 64 of the Highway Code which states that cyclists should dismount and walk across Zebra crossings.

    Breach of the Highway Code could be used as evidence of an offence, e.g. cycling dangerously, or of evidence of negligence in the event of a collision.

    Must be correct - Google says so
    "Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful"

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    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 18th May 17, 9:45 AM
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    Pyxis
    What was interesting was the regulation about whether a cyclist can ride across a crossing (i.e. to cross the road) or whether they have to dismount and walk across.

    In the cyclist's defence, the rules are mixed.

    They can ride across a Toucan crossing (but only when the green man is displayed) but not across a zebra, pelican or puffin. For those, they have to dismount and walk across.

    Who knows the difference between a pelican, puffin and toucan crossing?

    Also, they can ride across if there are cycleways on either side of the crossing, thus making the crossing shared use between cyclists and pedestrians.

    So, sometimes they can, and sometimes they can't. A bit confusing.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..

    X ~O
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 18th May 17, 9:54 AM
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    Pyxis
    PELICAN crossing:- (PE LI CON)
    "A pelican crossing (previously Pelicon Crossing – PEdestrian LIght CONtrolled Crossing) is a type of pedestrian crossing, which features a pair of poles each with a standard set of traffic lights facing oncoming traffic, a push button and two illuminated, coloured pictograms facing the pedestrian from across the road."



    PUFFIN crossings.:- (Pedestrian User-Friendly INtelligent)
    "- Pelicans and puffins are essentially the same (try telling that to an ornithologist!), except that a puffin crossing has its sequences controlled by sensors mounted on the lights, rather than a timer."

    The smart sensor detects when there is no longer a pedestrian on the crossing and changes the lights to green. (With the Pelican, the duration of the lights is fixed).


    TOUCAN crossings:- (TWO CAN)
    "A toucan crossing is a type of pedestrian crossing found in the United Kingdom that also allows bicycles to be ridden across. Since two–can, both pedestrians and cyclists, cross together, the name "toucan" was chosen."

    It looks like the crossing has a separate 'lane' for the cyclists to cross the road on. Otherwise, they seem to be the same as Puffin crossings.





    Well, I've learned something now! I don't think I've ever seen a Toucan crossing.
    Last edited by Pyxis; 18-05-2017 at 10:40 AM.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..

    X ~O
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 18th May 17, 10:35 AM
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    NBLondon
    Here's one... https://goo.gl/maps/PWyfnwNQGDF2

    This is at the end of the shared path I mentioned upthread - the shared path goes south across the heath and the Toucan crosses the A2. North is Greenwich Park.

    And on that subject... There are roads in the Park so obviously cyclists are entitled to use these. There are pathways which are marked as shared and others marked "No Cycling". There's even a code of conduct for cyclists in the Royal Parks https://www.royalparks.org.uk/park-management/cycling-in-the-royal-parks/the-pathway-code-of-conduct-considerate-cycling which explicitly states
    Although pedestrians have priority over all other users, even in areas designated and marked for other purposes, everyone is asked to use the pathways considerately.
    In my experience of the park, 90%+ of the cyclists are considerate.
    One day I'll think of something witty - Apparently I have!
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 18th May 17, 10:39 AM
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    NBLondon
    Oh and to be really nerdy...


    When the path is a bridleway or other form used by horses - the crossing may have a second set of push buttons at a convenient height for the rider turning a Toucan into a Pegasus!
    One day I'll think of something witty - Apparently I have!
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 18th May 17, 10:43 AM
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    Pyxis
    Here's one... https://goo.gl/maps/PWyfnwNQGDF2

    This is at the end of the shared path I mentioned upthread - the shared path goes south across the heath and the Toucan crosses the A2. North is Greenwich Park.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    All I can see there is a mini-roundabout. No lights-controlled crossing.







    Oh and to be really nerdy...


    When the path is a bridleway or other form used by horses - the crossing may have a second set of push buttons at a convenient height for the rider turning a Toucan into a Pegasus!
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    A Pegasus is definitely a first for me; never p, ever heard of that!

    Does the horse know that it can only walk-on when there is a green horse showing?
    Last edited by Pyxis; 18-05-2017 at 10:46 AM.
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, P.P..

    X ~O
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 18th May 17, 1:24 PM
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    rtho782
    Pedestrians should step aside and give way for the faster moving bike and the cyclist should ring their bell and slow down as they approach a pedestrian.
    Originally posted by Lumstorm
    Ok, then how do you feel about this:

    Cyclists should pull over and give way for faster moving cars and cars should beep their horns and slow down as they approach cyclists.

    I bet not many cyclists would go for that, so why do they think they have rights over pedestrians?
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    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 18th May 17, 1:32 PM
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    unholyangel
    The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossing Regulations and general Directions (1997) give direction on the regulatory frameworks surrounding crossings.

    • Zebra crossings give pedestrians priority over vehicles on the carriageway

    • Cyclists are vehicles and are permitted to ride on the part of a Zebra crossing that is carriageway, provided they give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross.

    • It is not illegal to cycle across a Zebra crossing if there is shared-use to either side, but it is contrary to Rule 64 of the Highway Code which states that cyclists should dismount and walk across Zebra crossings.

    Breach of the Highway Code could be used as evidence of an offence, e.g. cycling dangerously, or of evidence of negligence in the event of a collision.

    Must be correct - Google says so
    Originally posted by bubblesbonbon
    The document that is taken from explains:
    There has been considerable interest over recent years in the possibility of a version of a
    Zebra crossing designed for shared use by cyclists and pedestrians; in some circles this has
    been termed a Tiger crossing. Under present legislation these are not permitted, so a
    number of local authorities have been trialling designs
    that direct cyclists over standard
    Zebra crossings whilst others have introduced alternative designs
    And also:

    • Nearly 90% of cyclists at six sites surveyed for TfL cycled across Zebra crossings
    • The Secretary of State has powers to make regulations with respect to precedence of
    vehicles and pedestrians respectively, and generally with respect to the movement of traffic
    (including pedestrians) at and in the vicinity of crossings. Presently Zebra crossing
    regulations only allow for pedestrians to have precedence over vehicles.
    As for when a pedestrian has precedence:
    25.—(1) Every pedestrian, if he is on the carriageway within the limits of a Zebra crossing, which is not for the time being controlled by a constable in uniform or traffic warden, before any part of a vehicle has entered those limits, shall have precedence within those limits over that vehicle and the driver of the vehicle shall accord such precedence to any such pedestrian.
    So pedestrians only have precedence over vehicles if they're within the limits of the crossing before any part of the vehicle is. If not, the car has precedence.
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    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 18th May 17, 5:21 PM
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    NBLondon
    All I can see there is a mini-roundabout. No lights-controlled crossing.
    Originally posted by Pyxis
    Walk South a little to the main road. Google wouldn't let me place the marker on the south side at the end of the shared path.

    Never seen a Pegasus myself - presumably they are in rural areas with bridleways. Unless there are some in other parks.
    One day I'll think of something witty - Apparently I have!
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