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  • FIRST POST
    • kitty4ever
    • By kitty4ever 9th May 17, 3:55 PM
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    kitty4ever
    estoppel passing on from grandad
    • #1
    • 9th May 17, 3:55 PM
    estoppel passing on from grandad 9th May 17 at 3:55 PM
    Hello,

    Can anyone help me with this?

    My mum and dad got married in 1968 the house they bought cost 3500 at the time, 500 for house deposit was lent from my granddad to my mum and dad, the loan never was repaid to granddad.

    Granddad was a builder and did a lot of unpaid work on the house on the agreement that it was a investment into the family and would pass down through generations or be paid back someday. Granddad knocked the two reception rooms downstairs into one big room, built a kitchen extension, a conservatory, a garage and a green house, lots and lots of unpaid work.

    Mum and dad got divorced in 1988, they sold the mentioned house, then mum had a unmarried partner and cohabited with him in different property bought 1995 as joint (beneficiary) tenants. Four years later mum died, with no will, partner claimed the whole lot [estate] for himself, house, money, chattels.

    A very amicable discussion took place with all mentioned parties present, mum, her partner, me, granddad. During the discussion:
    Granddad had said about all his lent money and work done and that he was not reimbursed when the first house was sold.
    It was promised by mums partner that the relationship with him and mums adult children would continue after mums death, and that on his [mums partner] death his whole estate would be equally divided by his own two adult children and mums two adult children, it was also acknowledged by mothers partner about work done on first house, and that mums two adult children would be beneficiaries on his death.

    That did not happen; Relationship did not continue and he left his estate to his children and grandchildren only.
    i need advice?
    I need to go to court and claim estoppel and also passed on estoppel from granddad [deceased].
Page 2
    • kitty4ever
    • By kitty4ever 9th May 17, 10:55 PM
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    kitty4ever
    He was not arranging the funeral, he had actually dumped mum off at the hospital when she was ill and refused to have her back in their house after several days of hospital admission and being returned home by ambulance couriers, stabilized on medication after a drug caused psychotic episode.

    He said, "Your family are paying for your mother's funeral"
    & said, "Don't forget your wallet when you visit the funeral director"

    Thanks Everyone For Your Help.
    • securityguy
    • By securityguy 10th May 17, 9:07 AM
    • 2,328 Posts
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    securityguy
    Lying to the registrar is a specific offence of perjury and carries a prison sentence (but is rarely prosecuted)
    Originally posted by TonyMMM
    "But is rarely prosecuted" is pretty much the definition of "a technical offence". The cases that would arouse the ire of the authorities would be where the circumstances of the death were in some way misrepresented, but that isn't the accusation here.

    and "relative" has a very clear definition under registration rules.
    I've been looking and have been unable to find anything. Do you have a citation you could point me to? There's a lot of by-play about the ways in which common law spouses can report deaths, which is presumably going to become more of an issue as the generations move on.

    although you could still submit an application for a correction to the registration.
    Which would have no bearing whatsoever on this shambles, of course.
    • TonyMMM
    • By TonyMMM 11th May 17, 8:37 AM
    • 2,333 Posts
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    TonyMMM
    Security Guy

    Making false statements to a registrar when registering a birth/death or for the purpose of procuring a marriage are specific offences under s3 of the Perjury Act 1911 and carry up to 7 years imprisonment. Offences related to marriages are quite regularly prosecuted - those for births/deaths would normally depend on someone making a complaint to GRO - they are then usually dealt with by way of correction and the facts reported to the DPP. If the statement was made for fraudulent purposes then the substantive offence would usually take precedence and the perjury be used as evidence to support that.

    The basic meaning of "relative" has been defined through years of legal cases and many statutes as being being those related by blood - the Birth & Death Registration Acts (specifically the interpretation sections with in the 1874 & 1953 Acts ) extend the definition for the purposes of registration to include those connected by marriage or adoption. These definitions are also in the GRO Handbook for Registrars.

    As the law stands cohabiting partners are not legally related and so cannot register a death as a relative - however there are number of other qualifications that may allow them to do so ( being present at the death, or being the person arranging the burial/cremation for example). This is a scenario registrars deal with every day - the qualification used will be stated on the register.

    Getting the original entry corrected may not achieve anything in relation to the problem of the estate, but would set the record straight and may help the OP move on. It would require an application to be made to the Registrar General with supporting evidence.
    Last edited by TonyMMM; 11-05-2017 at 8:43 AM.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 11th May 17, 1:46 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    Getting the GRO to amend incorrect details of a death record is not easy. I tried to get it done and it was only once I involved my MP that they caved in. They then demanded I pay a fee for a copy of the corrected entry. My MP was not amused but again they caved in "due to exceptional circumstances". A word that rhymes with where you put the oars on a rowing boat!
    • TonyMMM
    • By TonyMMM 11th May 17, 2:12 PM
    • 2,333 Posts
    • 2,455 Thanks
    TonyMMM
    Getting the GRO to amend incorrect details of a death record is not easy. I tried to get it done and it was only once I involved my MP that they caved in. They then demanded I pay a fee for a copy of the corrected entry. My MP was not amused but again they caved in "due to exceptional circumstances". A word that rhymes with where you put the oars on a rowing boat!
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99
    It is difficult - and would normally require statutory declarations from two people to support it. In this case, if the informant was not actually qualified, it may be the RG would order a re-registration by a properly qualified informant....who knows.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 11th May 17, 4:00 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    Unless the details of the death are incorrectly recorded by the GRO then is there any point? In my case the spelling of the surname was wrong with the obvious difficulties this created.
    • kitty4ever
    • By kitty4ever 13th May 17, 1:15 PM
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    kitty4ever
    the first 25K in a bank account, does not need a grant of probate or will.
    only a death certificate, banks bereavement form, and ID from the person claiming the money is required.
    Any unscrupulous acquaintance of the deceased can get in-there first.
    "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 13th May 17, 1:44 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    the first 25K in a bank account, does not need a grant of probate or will.
    only a death certificate, banks bereavement form, and ID from the person claiming the money is required.
    Any unscrupulous acquaintance of the deceased can get in-there first.
    Originally posted by kitty4ever
    This is not univeresally true. Banks and building societies have different rules. Some require probate for even trivial sums as others have already stated.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 16-05-2017 at 6:00 PM.
    • kitty4ever
    • By kitty4ever 16th May 17, 2:34 PM
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    kitty4ever
    It's hard to see how you think promissory estoppel arises. Are you thinking that a verbal, undocumented agreement would override intestacy provisions? No way. It would be virtually impossible to make that case over a will (after all, "Nan promised me her emerald necklace crockery, but it's not in the will!" would clog the courts up for years) but to claim that there was a verbal agreement which overrides people's rights in intestacy over what is clearly the deceased's property is doomed to disaster.
    In today's world with smart phones and hindsight, there are a many opportunities for clandestine secret recordings of will discussions and family business agreements.
    "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 16th May 17, 6:02 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    In today's world with smart phones and hindsight, there are a many opportunities for clandestine secret recordings of will discussions and family business agreements.
    Originally posted by kitty4ever
    Maybe but the chances of these having much evidential value in contesting a will in this case is slim to non exeistant
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 16-05-2017 at 6:21 PM.
    • kitty4ever
    • By kitty4ever 16th May 17, 6:12 PM
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    • 0 Thanks
    kitty4ever
    Play a game of poker, claim you have clandestine recordings without ever showing your full, or part of your hand [recordings].
    agree to reveal clandestine recordings only after a full and final out of court settlement; then you don't.
    "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 16th May 17, 6:24 PM
    • 2,310 Posts
    • 1,845 Thanks
    Yorkshireman99
    Play a game of poker, claim you have clandestine recordings without ever showing your full, or part of your hand [recordings].
    agree to reveal clandestine recordings only after a full and final out of court settlement; then you don't.
    Originally posted by kitty4ever
    This sort of scenario only happens in novels. In the real world RAOTFLOL.
    • securityguy
    • By securityguy 17th May 17, 7:26 AM
    • 2,328 Posts
    • 3,572 Thanks
    securityguy
    Play a game of poker, claim you have clandestine recordings without ever showing your full, or part of your hand [recordings].
    agree to reveal clandestine recordings only after a full and final out of court settlement; then you don't.
    Originally posted by kitty4ever
    So let's try that out. You communicate with someone and say "I have a recording of you saying things that will be damaging to your civil case, give me money and sign a non-disclosure agreement or I will reveal the recordings". The person with whom you are communicating records this discussion (sauce for the goose, etc) or, indeed, doesn't, but in either event goes to the police and makes a complaint of blackmail against you, escalating a civil case into a criminal one. Your move.
    • kitty4ever
    • By kitty4ever 17th May 17, 11:45 AM
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    • 0 Thanks
    kitty4ever
    how are recordings of third party deceased people blackmail? Mutual consent could have been given to record.
    "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    • securityguy
    • By securityguy 17th May 17, 12:13 PM
    • 2,328 Posts
    • 3,572 Thanks
    securityguy
    how are recordings of third party deceased people blackmail? Mutual consent could have been given to record.
    Originally posted by kitty4ever
    The blackmail comes from the threat, not the recordings themselves. Theft Act 1968, S.21.
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