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  • FIRST POST
    • paraza
    • By paraza 9th May 17, 12:59 PM
    • 38Posts
    • 3Thanks
    paraza
    Appealing a PCN ticket if you're not the registered owner
    • #1
    • 9th May 17, 12:59 PM
    Appealing a PCN ticket if you're not the registered owner 9th May 17 at 12:59 PM
    1. My husband received PCN from Indigo. I appealed and it and didn't hear back. However I subsequently found a response in my spam folder from indigo with a rejection letter. The rejection letter had a POPLA code but when I tried to appeal it with POPLA it had expired. Popla have advised me to request another POPLA code from Indigo.

    2. The car was a courtesy car(owned by Enterprise)as my husbands car was in the garage.

    3. Indigo subsequently notified Enterprise and Enterprise have notified us of our liability. Enterprise have charged our credit card, which they held on file, a charge of £159 😩

    What do you advise I do? Any help is much appreciated. Thank you 😊
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th May 17, 2:06 PM
    • 40,410 Posts
    • 80,713 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 9th May 17, 2:06 PM
    • #2
    • 9th May 17, 2:06 PM
    Complain like mad to the hire company. I bet the Ts and Cs mention penalty charges and fines, but not parking charges from private companies. That would be like Enterprise paying a bill for a plumber's invoice for work that was never carried out, then charging you for it. They are not allowed to do it.

    You must first as a priority contact your credit card provider and put the charge in dispute, as an unauthorised payment, then contact the hire company to tell them what you have done and why.

    I believe they are a member of the BVRLA, (hire company trade association) and therefore they MUST follow the BVRLA guidelines that tells them to send the PCN to the hirer and NOT pay it.
    You will have to do a bit of research on the BVRLA website to find the correct wording to quote, and also (I think) their chairman sent out a letter telling all members that they MUST follow this policy. Hopefully one of the regulars may be able to help with this bit.

    So, contact the credit card company today, research the BVRLA requirements, then complain very forcefully to the hire company demanding a refund quoting their own trade association code of practice as for your reasons why. In addition, tell Enterprise that they had no liability themselves (unless it was a byelaws case) and by paying it they have denied you the right to appeal it which you were in the process of doing.

    Was this at a railway station by any chance? If so, the owner, not the keeper or driver or hirer would have been liable as byelaws would have applied (and only for trespass, not a parking charge) so Enterprise were liable in the first place not the hirer. Point out that you were prepared to deal with this yourselves as a gesture of goodwill. Now they have lost all your goodwill as a result of their actions.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 09-05-2017 at 2:14 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
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    • waamo
    • By waamo 9th May 17, 2:15 PM
    • 2,063 Posts
    • 2,474 Thanks
    waamo
    • #3
    • 9th May 17, 2:15 PM
    • #3
    • 9th May 17, 2:15 PM
    Firstly there is no such thing as a registered owner. There is a person keeping the vehicle (i.e. Who has the keys and is responsible for it) and the registered keeper (the person on the DVLA records).

    Enterprise have been contacted as the registered keeper. Did they pass your details on to Indigo as the person keeping the vehicle? If they did, which seems likely otherwise how did you know to appeal, then their liability for any charges ends.

    Indigo should be chasing you for payment and should not have contacted Enterprise again.
    This space for hire.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th May 17, 2:35 PM
    • 40,410 Posts
    • 80,713 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 9th May 17, 2:35 PM
    • #4
    • 9th May 17, 2:35 PM
    NO MORE POSTS ON THIS THREAD PLEASE.

    It is a duplicate. Please only post on the original thread.

    Here.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5640318
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • paraza
    • By paraza 9th May 17, 2:36 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    paraza
    • #5
    • 9th May 17, 2:36 PM
    • #5
    • 9th May 17, 2:36 PM
    Complain like mad to the hire company. I bet the Ts and Cs mention penalty charges and fines, but not parking charges from private companies. That would be like Enterprise paying a bill for a plumber's invoice for work that was never carried out, then charging you for it. They are not allowed to do it.

    You must first as a priority contact your credit card provider and put the charge in dispute, as an unauthorised payment, then contact the hire company to tell them what you have done and why.

    I believe they are a member of the BVRLA, (hire company trade association) and therefore they MUST follow the BVRLA guidelines that tells them to send the PCN to the hirer and NOT pay it.
    You will have to do a bit of research on the BVRLA website to find the correct wording to quote, and also (I think) their chairman sent out a letter telling all members that they MUST follow this policy. Hopefully one of the regulars may be able to help with this bit.

    So, contact the credit card company today, research the BVRLA requirements, then complain very forcefully to the hire company demanding a refund quoting their own trade association code of practice as for your reasons why. In addition, tell Enterprise that they had no liability themselves (unless it was a byelaws case) and by paying it they have denied you the right to appeal it which you were in the process of doing.

    Was this at a railway station by any chance? If so, the owner, not the keeper or driver or hirer would have been liable as byelaws would have applied (and only for trespass, not a parking charge) so Enterprise were liable in the first place not the hirer. Point out that you were prepared to deal with this yourselves as a gesture of goodwill. Now they have lost all your goodwill as a result of their actions.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Sorry I should have said. The payment was taken from a debit card. Can this still be disputed.? Your reply has been very helpful. Thank you for taking the time to send all that information, I'm really grateful
    • paraza
    • By paraza 9th May 17, 2:39 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    paraza
    • #6
    • 9th May 17, 2:39 PM
    • #6
    • 9th May 17, 2:39 PM
    Firstly there is no such thing as a registered owner. There is a person keeping the vehicle (i.e. Who has the keys and is responsible for it) and the registered keeper (the person on the DVLA records).

    Enterprise have been contacted as the registered keeper. Did they pass your details on to Indigo as the person keeping the vehicle? If they did, which seems likely otherwise how did you know to appeal, then their liability for any charges ends.

    Indigo should be chasing you for payment and should not have contacted Enterprise again.
    Originally posted by waamo
    I appealed from the PCN that was left on the car. Then Indigo just contacted Enterprise and the next we knew was a letter from Enterprise informing us they'd charges £159 to our card. I've spoken to Enterprise a few moments ago and they said we need to go back to Indigob and if the appeal is successful they will refund the £159. I'm just not sure who I complain to? Enterprise or Indigo? Thanks for your help
    • paraza
    • By paraza 18th May 17, 11:13 AM
    • 38 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    paraza
    • #7
    • 18th May 17, 11:13 AM
    • #7
    • 18th May 17, 11:13 AM
    I sent this letter to Enterprise and below that is their response. I'd really appreciate any suggestions of where to go from here. Thank you 👍

    LETTER SENT TO ENTERPRISE

    I am writing to complain about a letter received from you, dated 21/04/2017 concerning contract no 6RCHVR.

    My complaint is that you have made charge to my card for a PCN. This was not an authorised transaction as it was not a traffic violation, it was a parking charge from a private company. You are simply not allowed to do this.

    As a member of the BVRLA you must follow their guidelines. In their guidelines it states that 'the customer must be provided with supporting evidence and made aware of the amount before their nominated method of payment is charged. You did not follow these guidelines. The BVRLA also states that you 'will advise customers of the steps they should take if they wish to dispute the charges, including details on how to contact any relevant customer service department'. You also did not follow these guidelines.

    You have also denied us the right to appeal, which we were in the process of doing.

    In addition to this the PCN was issued at a railway station which therefore meant the owner of the vehicle is liable, not the keeper, driver or hirer as bylaws would have applied. Hence Enterprise were liable in the first place, not myself. As a gesture of goodwill I was prepared to deal with this by appealing. However you have now lost all of my goodwill as a result of your actions.

    I therefore request you refund the £159 in full.

    LETTER RECEIVED IN RESPONSE FROM ENTERPRISE

    I understand that you would like to have appealed the PCN, although as I was trying to explain Enterprise is within its rights to charge the renter for any traffic violation as you would have signed on our Rental agreement where it states " Traffic violations are not permitted under the terms of the hire and are the responsibility of the hirer. a charge of up to £35.00 may be made to compensate us for incurred handling cost".



    I hope this make it clear as to why we have charged you for the traffic violations, if you have any further questions or queries please reach out to me.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th May 17, 11:20 AM
    • 14,859 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 18th May 17, 11:20 AM
    • #8
    • 18th May 17, 11:20 AM
    You could issue a 'Letter Before Claim' and if they fail to respond to that (or not refund you), then issue a MCOL (Money Claim on Line). They will have to respond to that via a defence, or you will win by default.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 18th May 17, 11:20 AM
    • 7,155 Posts
    • 6,202 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #9
    • 18th May 17, 11:20 AM
    • #9
    • 18th May 17, 11:20 AM
    Have you written to your local Trading Standards Officer? It sounds like fraud to me. s
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th May 17, 7:02 PM
    • 50,582 Posts
    • 63,964 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ask them if this is their final answer and did they not realise that every single appealed case v Indigo, wins at POPLA (if it was a railway car park). So they have denied you that right now because Indigo will not consider an appeal, once a fake (private) PCN is paid. Tell them you wish to escalate this to the BVRLA, using the Trade Body complaints procedure.

    Meanwhile send an appeal as 'lessee' to Indigo (not by post this time) this week. To see if Indigo will or won't consider an appeal. Don't write about who was driving, as you will have learned when you read the NEWBIES FAQS thread.

    And lodge a formal dispute with your Credit Card provider, to reverse the transaction.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • paraza
    • By paraza 23rd May 17, 2:58 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    paraza
    This is the letter I sent to Enterprise

    LETTER BEFORE ACTION
    -------------------------------------

    The reason why we are making a claim for £159 is for the refund of a charge made against my card is because it was not an authorised transaction. Firstly you made a charge for a PCN which was issued at a railway station. In this instance the owner of the vehicle is liable, not the keeper, driver or hirer as bylaws would have applied. You have not respected this bylaw and hence the charge to my card is not lawful. Hence lawfully you must refund the amount in full.

    Although your terms and conditions state 'As a reminder, your signature on the rental contract allows Enterprise full authorisation to process any applicable charges for
    penalties and / or administration fees for violations incurred during your rental period' they do not specifically mention parking charges from private companies.



    Thirdly the BVRLA states you 'will advise customers of the steps they should take if they wish to dispute the charges, including details on how to contact any relevant customer service department' You did not follow these guidelines.



    In order to put things right I would like you refund the charge of £159.



    If I do not receive a satisfactory response from you within 14 days of this letter, I intend to issue proceedings against you in the county court without further notice. This may increase your liability for costs.



    I look forward to your acknowledgement,

    THIS IS THEIR REPLY

    Thank you for your email.



    As stated in my previous email you signed our rental agreement allowing us authorise payment from the debit or credit card presented at the time of rental.



    If you please see below the contract that states “Any charge or penalty charge for parking or bus lane contraventions”. This is signed by you on the date of hire.



    We are more than happy to help if you wish to appeal your parking notice.



    All appeal processes are different. We can’t state the whole process on our letter as it is different with every issuing agency. We did provide on the bottom of our letter our customer service number in case you have any queries or questions. If we do not know you wish to appeal the penalty we can’t advise you of this information.



    SHOULD I RESPOND? OR SHOULD I START PROCEEDINGS TO RECOUP THE MONEY? I CAN'T LODGE A DISPUTE WITH MY CREDIT CARD COMPANY AS THEY HAD MY DEBIT CARD DETAILS. THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR ADVICE SO FAR. I WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED OF HOW THIS PROGRESSES. MANY THANKS
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd May 17, 9:58 PM
    • 50,582 Posts
    • 63,964 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Respond by telling them you cannot appeal because they've gone and PAID it, so that the parking firm will NOT consider any appeal.

    As such, due to Enterprise's error and unlawful misappropriation of funds from your credit card, you reserve the right to sue them for that loss but as a first step, you have raised a dispute with your card provider to return the money to your account. Should Enterprise try to pursue it you will report their conduct to the BVRLA immediately.

    Remind them that this was never their liability and ask why they can't tell the difference between a private PCN issued under the POFA and one that is not (the latter being a case where a hire firm never has any liability, nor any business in decided unilaterally to pay a matter that is the driver's responsibility alone). Ask which part of the POFA Schedule 4 did they think applied to this PCN, because it isn't a POFA one at all.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 23-05-2017 at 10:02 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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