Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 8th May 17, 11:34 PM
    • 15Posts
    • 16Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    Excel / BW Legal - CCJ Issued: Set-Aside Fightback
    • #1
    • 8th May 17, 11:34 PM
    Excel / BW Legal - CCJ Issued: Set-Aside Fightback 8th May 17 at 11:34 PM
    Hi All,

    I have an absolutely genuine but rather shambolic (my own actions included) case against a Parking Charge Notice, and would be grateful to anyone that can offer some expertise.

    Location: Media City Car Park
    Claimant: Excel Parking


    On new years' eve 31/12/13 I parked at the above location visiting friends for the usual NYE hootnanny!
    I purchased a 12hr ticket valid from 20:00 until 08:00 on 1/1/14.
    Several hours (and beverages) later.. I returned to my car to purchase an extending ticket, knowing an 8am get-up might be tricky!
    The second ticket was again 12hr, valid from 03:38 until 15:38 on 1/1/14.
    So effectively covering from 20:00 on NYE until 15:38 on NYD.
    I have the original tickets as proof.

    I returned to my car around 12pm noon on 1/1/14 to find a Parking Charge Notice issued by the lovely people at Excel.
    This made no sense, as I had bought and clearly displayed tickets covering me for several more hours.
    The 'contravention' apparently occurred at 08:19 of the 1/1/14.


    After receiving the original claim letters from Excel some months later, I went through the POPLA appeals process to clear up the matter.
    Obviously a mistake had been made by the parking attendant and it would be cleared right away. Or so I thought...

    Here's where it gets silly - I sent my POPLA appeal with a scanned copy of what I thought was the valid ticket... but accidentally sent the EXPIRED ONE instead!!!😂
    Needless to say, POPLA rejected it - as it showed the expired ticket at 08:00 - instead of the valid one (until 15:38).
    I went back via email to POPLA and tried to undo my stupidity over several emails, and was virtually ignored. Despite having concrete evidence, surely?
    To make things worse, I admitted on my POPLA appeal that I was the driver - unaware that this evidence is seen by the PPC.

    All around shoddy on my side, probably due to complacency.


    Cue 3 years later, and various legal companies/debt collectors sending threatening letters - from the original (name escapes me but have records I need to dig out) to Zenith Collections and now BW Legal.
    I took the MSE and Pepipoo general consensus after hours of fretted research, to ignore them indefinitely. Basically, don't make contact as they virtually never press court action.


    Now I have a CCJ entered against me by BW Legal 7/4/17, having received a 'Claim Form' from County Court and one from BW Legal.


    I only laid hands on the letters yesterday, having moved from my previous address.

    There is also a subsequent letter dated 2/5/17 headed 'Judgement for Claimant (in default)' from County Court.
    And another from BW on 3/5/17 stating 'A county court judgement has been entered against you'.
    This says I need to pay by 1/6/17 or they will have to enforce the judgement by various undesirable means.


    Up until this point I've been laid back about the whole thing, assured by the MSE/Pepipoo members who've been there.

    Now I'm honestly quite stressed about the whole thing, unsure of whether I've now 'missed the boat' to defend myself. A boat that I was previously confident would float. Now however, given the situation, and with a first mortgage on the cards it would be a huge blow to lose my credit rating.

    Just to reiterate, I have both the original pay & display tickets. Plus photos (from a distance) of both the expired and valid tickets on display, from the PPC's POPLA evidence.
    Uncannily, they got a close-up photo of the expired ticket only, not the valid one sat just inches away on the dashboard...

    I would like to know;
    1) As it seems the CCJ is legitimate, what's the next step?
    2) Has this been ruled against me in my absence, and I have to pay? (No letters telling me of a court hearing).
    3) If it's not too late, how best to handle this?
    - Contact the County Court, explain and send proof?
    - Wait for a hearing (if it's not happened) and send BW Legal/Excel packing (with concerted research and preparation this time) on the grounds I have complied with their parking terms and can prove it?

    Note: The above text is an edit from an email I sent to Parking Prankster yesterday, who is apparently now unable to take on new cases according to his auto-reply. I hope he gets whatever issue it is sorted, as anyone who takes on these shysters in such a manner deserves nothing but good things IMO.


    Apologies for the 'War and Peace' but I wanted to clarify things as best as possible. 😊

    Appreciate any help that can be offered.


    Thanks.
    Last edited by iusedtoworkhere; 18-05-2017 at 10:47 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th May 17, 11:42 PM
    • 14,735 Posts
    • 18,514 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 8th May 17, 11:42 PM
    • #2
    • 8th May 17, 11:42 PM
    I suggest you read up about set asides which can cost £255 unless you can convince the court to reopen the case (which has had a default judgment made already in your case)

    see this thread for starters

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5645247

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5610260&page=2

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5636608

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5644807


    there are plenty more you can read , with the same advice , plus post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread near the top of this forum as well (its all here if you look)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th May 17, 9:08 AM
    • 13,585 Posts
    • 21,297 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 9th May 17, 9:08 AM
    • #3
    • 9th May 17, 9:08 AM
    More reading on set asides etc.

    http://www.aboutsmallclaims.co.uk/

    http://www.aboutsmallclaims.co.uk/county-court-judgement-against-you.html

    http://www.aboutsmallclaims.co.uk/set-aside-default-court-judgment.html
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 9th May 17, 1:25 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    • #4
    • 9th May 17, 1:25 PM
    • #4
    • 9th May 17, 1:25 PM
    Thanks for the links Redx and Umkomaas.

    I'll start to digest this lot later this evening. It did start to dawn yesterday before my post that a set-aside sounded like the stage I'd reached, though with limited free time and a lack of knowledge on these matters I appreciate the links.

    Once I've understood the options and have a cohesive plan I'll update.

    Can't bear the thought of settling the claim, on principal alone...
    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 15th May 17, 1:41 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    • #5
    • 15th May 17, 1:41 PM
    • #5
    • 15th May 17, 1:41 PM
    So after looking into all of the above threads and more on CCJ's, I now understand a bit more about the process.

    Although there's now a few issues that might really hinder my chances;

    1. I asked a friend to take pictures of the site and signage yesterday (as I now live miles away) but it's now a building site, so no luck. The pictures from the claimant's POPLA were taken with a poor camera and can't really read the wording, expect for the biggest fonts. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing in terms of arguing over signage, but I can't pick apart their compliance in the most part anymore.
    2. As mentioned before, I unwittingly admitted to being the driver during my POPLA appeal. Excel have acknowledged this.

    On the plus side, I don't believe the NTK was only issued a month later (a non-compliance on their behalf I beleive), and there was no PCN on my windscreen at the time. Here's my original post back in 2014;
    forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4899716&highlight=excel+parking+s alford+quays[/url]

    I know now that my options are:

    a). Apply for a set-aside at a cost of £255, and should be successful initially with a well-prepared defence that has a chance of winning. Then I am back to the claimant wanting £100 and probably taking court action again. Then win or lose I won't have a CCJ on my record but may or may not be better off financially, results depending.

    b). Pay-up. Avoid CCJ on credit score if paid by this month. Swallowing my pride and saving myself many evenings of preparation and time off work. Sometimes wise to 'pick your battles' for sanity, but at the same time these guys are a bunch of shysters and should be fought..!

    c). Do nothing and await further action. Not really a good option, so let's discount that.


    What I would like to know is, in light of the above points, does anyone feel I have a solid chance of winning and should persist - realistically?

    I understand the defence is made up of many arguments such as liability, contract/agreement with landowner, compliance to signage/paperwork and so on. But just feel that I'd now have limited ammunition to make a solid case. Some of the main arguments are effectively nulled by my above points...

    Don't mean to appear lazy or unwilling, but after 10+ hours reading, I'm still a total newb to this. And with the last couple of days unable to commit any time it seems an avoidable burden that might be better off just paid and done with. £270 for peace and no CCJ on my credit report (what BW want me to do), or £255 and a long process to maybe get my money back plus a bit in expenses.

    Appreciate any thoughts.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 15th May 17, 2:15 PM
    • 1,696 Posts
    • 2,006 Thanks
    waamo
    • #6
    • 15th May 17, 2:15 PM
    • #6
    • 15th May 17, 2:15 PM
    Predicting the outcome of these cases is akin to predicting the outcome of the lottery frankly.

    I've seen what appeared to be rock solid defences fail and seen really poor defences succeed so who knows.

    If you had no paperwork from the courts that should get a set aside. Again it's not guaranteed though. It's a tough call and to be honest it's one only you can make.

    Have a think about it though and don't rush into a decision today. Get a good range of opinions.
    This space for hire.
    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 16th May 17, 1:18 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    • #7
    • 16th May 17, 1:18 PM
    • #7
    • 16th May 17, 1:18 PM
    Thanks waamo.

    It's interesting to hear your experience on strength of cases vs. results.

    The paperwork was sent to my previous address yes, if that's what you mean. At which point the second letter with the default judgement had just arrived. I would have been straight onto forming a proper response to the Claim Form given the opportunity - though now with a £255 fee just to get the ball rolling it seems a much bigger task.

    I have however just found electronic versions of their signage from the POPLA appeal evidence pack!

    For one - it states 'this car park closes at 19:00' (06:00 - 19:00 more precisely).
    So surely if I'd have unnecessarily bought a ticket (as it now appears I have), it would be valid from 06:00 onwards??
    Or does that mean I'm not allowed to park within those hours? Although my NTK was for 'not displaying a valid ticket' - which was untrue as previously mentioned.

    Back and forth in my mind over this now, found the evidence pack BUT admitted to being the driver.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 16th May 17, 2:55 PM
    • 1,696 Posts
    • 2,006 Thanks
    waamo
    • #8
    • 16th May 17, 2:55 PM
    • #8
    • 16th May 17, 2:55 PM
    If the signage is unclear and open to interpretation that's to your advantage. As a consumer it should be interpreted in your favour.

    I think your case is pretty strong, that wordage is clear as mud to me.
    This space for hire.
    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 16th May 17, 9:49 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    • #9
    • 16th May 17, 9:49 PM
    • #9
    • 16th May 17, 9:49 PM
    That's an interesting point waamo, and one I would probably miss with my relatively newb knowledge level. Would be keen to see what a well-trained eye could make from what would appear to be a generic parking sign.

    I've taken the liberty of uploading the signage PDF to Google Drive;

    drive.google.com/open?id=0B3g5A7bESGhWUk8xVko4Z2NoSDg[/url]

    You can read most except for the smallprint, which seems completely illegible...
    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 17th May 17, 10:38 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    So, looking at the most recent letter from BW Legal - it say's I have 14 days to make contact otherwise they can pursue other means. The 14th day is today.

    It also says I can request that the court remove the CCJ if paid in full by 1st June. A quick lookup suggests it will only ever appear as 'satisfied' and will stay on record regardless. Surely not good news for my families impending mortgage! And it'll be the first one in my name...

    Is it therefore right to conclude I need to fight this case, regardless of the questionable ethicalities of the whole situation?


    The key thing for me is not to affect my mortgage by any noticeable means. Like anyone, I want the best for my family and financial security is high priority.

    Paying the fine is secondary, I can afford being scammed as a one-off.. using some deposit savings..


    I would also be grateful if anyone could advise on the best steps from now, i.e;

    - How to contact BW Legal to put a stopper on further action? I presume email as there's a trail and it's instant? Need to be quick on this surely?
    - How to respond to BW initially?
    - Then, form a solid case to submit to the court. Use the many examples on here and elsewhere, tailor to my situation and post here for review. No problem.
    - When to submit to courts?

    Really appreciate any responses, I think this needs my full attention now. What seemed like an empty threat 3 years ago has put me in a horrible situation... so frustrating!!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 17, 10:48 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Have you seen post #2 of the NEWBIES thread and the section near the bottom of the small claims defence info, about set asides, with examples?

    Email BW Legal and keep a copy.

    Download the N244 form you need (Google it). You must act quickly.

    Read saggi's thread as he/she got a CCJ set aside AND the £255 fee refunded by the PPC - and their claim was struck out!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 17th May 17, 11:32 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    I don't have a formal response prepared, so just email BW and inform them I am applying for a set-aside and to not take further action?

    Then, the same to the court?

    I can then complete the N244 as outlined in some of the posts you referred to - that's fine.

    There seems to be conflicting info on paying within 1 month. One source says it will stay on your record. Another says the claimant is repsonsible for asking for the CCJ to be removed from my records - or failing that, I request to the court at a cost of £15.

    Does anyone have any clear understanding of this?


    If I pursue my case, then as previously mentioned I feel it could be weak:
    - I admitted being driver at POPLA, Excel aware.
    - The site is now a building site, so I'm relying on the POPLA evidence pack not my own pictures etc. Can't point out lighting at night or font size easily now.
    - I moved from my previous address - Excel should not have known. A key point in getting a set-aside I believe?

    All I've read from the Newbies section and elsewhere although is very informative... almost all haven't been stupid enough to admit driver liability. And seem to have more solid evidence/mitigating circumstances than myself.

    All I have is photographic proof of my 2 pay&display tickets on my dash (not close-up on the valid one) and the original tickets. Which in a simple world would be enough, but the legal world seems to operate on much finer details - so much it almost seems invalid to me!

    Again, really appreciate any responses. (Thanks again Coupon-mad - keep up the good work!)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 17, 11:36 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    so just email BW and inform them I am applying for a set-aside and to not take further action?
    Then, the same to the court?
    You don't have to do either of those emails at all - just the N244 with your WS attached as to what you found out and when (about this shock CCJ) and what your main grounds for defending the claim are, in order to convince the Judge you have prospects of success. It's not a shoo-in so you need to tip the balance in your favour with a good basis of defence points to support the application to set aside, plus your reason for not defending sooner.

    And you can add stuff about Sir Oliver Heald stating the Government will move to end this abuse of the court system by parking firms and their ilk (Excel gambled and most likely hoped you had moved, you know - they have little moral/reasonable excuse for this conduct in reality):

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/government-announce-ccj-review-due-to.html

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-protect-consumers-from-debt-claims

    Fill out the N244 as per saggi's thread, search the forum for it, a good outcome was achieved there. Most set asides we see are granted (as in every one I can recall here, but we argue them in detail to make sure). If you think your case is weak, believe us, BW Legal claims and 'evidence' is weaker!

    All I have is photographic proof of my 2 pay&display tickets on my dash (not close-up on the valid one) and the original tickets. Which in a simple world would be enough,
    Sounds good to me.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 17-05-2017 at 11:40 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 18th May 17, 10:23 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    I've now drafted the Witness Statement to attach to the N244 form (also complete as per Coupon mad's guide).

    I am (name) and I am the Defendant in this matter.
    This my supporting Statement in support of my application dated 18/05/2017 to:
    • Set aside the Default Judgement dated xx/xx/xxxx as it was not properly served at my current address;
    • Order for the original claim to be dismissed.

    1. Default Judgement

    1.1. I understand that the Claimant obtained a Default Judgement against me as the Defendant in May 2017. However, this claim form has not been served at my current address and I thus was not aware of the Claim Form or Default Judgement until xx/xx/xxxx (last week). I understand that this Claim was served at an old address (2xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx). However, I moved to a new address in September 2015. In support of this I can provide confirmation from xxxx Council showing my updated details for the purposes of paying Council tax.

    1.5. I believe the Claimant has behaved unreasonably in pursuing a claim against me without ensuring they held the Defendant’s correct contact details. According to publicly available information my circumstances are far from being unique. The Claimant’s persistent failure to use correct and current addresses results is an unnecessary burden for individuals and the justice system across the country.

    1.6. On the basis provided above I would suggest that the Claimant did not fulfil their duty to use the Defendant’s current address when bringing the claim.

    1.7. Considering the above I was unable to defend this claim properly. I thus believe that the Default Judgement against me was issued incorrectly and thus should be set aside.

    2. Order dismissing the Claim

    2.1. I refute the Claimant's case that I, quote: 'Parked after the expiry of time in a pay & display car park' as alleged in the Notice to Keeper, PCN No: xxxxxxx. I have proof that this is wholly untrue, in the form of the original copies of two pay & display tickets that afford parking provision to myself at the time time of the alleged contravention. Please refer to Evidence xxxx which is a pay &
    display ticket valid from 02:00 until 14:00 on 01/01/14. The alleged contravention occurred at 08:45 on 01/01/14. The claim issued in the Notice to Keeper is therefore void by any reasonable view, understanding or interpretation and as such has no standing in a court of law and should be fully dismissed as having no basis for any claim in the first instance.

    2.2. In relation to the pay & display ticket that the contravention was issued against (Evidence xxxx), this was purchased on the 31/12/2013, valid from 20:00 until 08:00 on 01/01/21014. However, the car park does not require a valid ticket between the hours of 19:00 and 06:00 (See Tarrif Board Evidence xxxx), therefore I argue the original ticket should have been valid from 06:00 until 18:00 on 01/01/2014, or alternatively, that no charge was made to myself at the time of arrival. As a charge was made, it could be argued that contrary to there being a loss incurred by the parking company or landowner, that they did infact profit more from my stay than appropriate.

    2.3. I further believe that the original Claim by the Claimant has no merit and should thus be dismissed. I understand that the Claimant is a Parking Company which seeks to claim for “Parking Charge Notices” which the Claimant believes are due as a result of an alleged breach of contract for parking by a motorist.

    2.4. A requirement of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is that this any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must be served within 14 days of the date of the alleged incident. There was no Notice affixed to the keeper's car (Evidence photo xxxx) and the Notice to Keeper did not arrive until more than one calendar month post hoc, on the xx/02/2014. Thus I submit the Claimant will not have complied with the requirements of the Act and thus cannot claim this charge against me as the Registered Keeper in any case.

    2.5. I further submit that the Claimant’s claim is without merit due to substantial issues in law. This is for the following main reasons:

    2.5.1. Lack of Standing by Claimant: The Claimant is unlikely to be the landowner of the car park in question, and will have no proprietary interest in it. This means that the Claimant, as a matter of law, will have no locus standi to litigate in their own name. Any consideration will have been provided by the landholder, and only they would have been able sue for any damages or trespass.
    2.5.2. No Loss Suffered by Claimant: Their claim is presumably based on damages for alleged
    breach of contract. It is a fundamental principle of English Law that a party who suffers damages through breach of contract can only seek through court action to be put back in the same position as they would have been if the breach had not occurred. In order to do so, they must demonstrate their actual, or genuine, pre-estimate of loss. I submit that no loss has been suffered by the Claimant as a result of any alleged breaches of contract on the part of any motorist of the vehicle of which I am the Registered Keeper. I further submit that the landholder (which would be the only party able to claim such losses) received twice the statutory payment from myself, and thus there was no loss whatsoever incurred by the landowner.
    2.5.3. Claimed charge is an Unenforceable Penalty: I further submit that the Parking Charge that the Claimant claimed, given it is not based on any loss suffered due to the alleged breach, is nothing but an unenforceable penalty.
    2.5.4. No contract with the claimant: Any contract must have offer, acceptance and consideration both ways. There would not have been consideration from the Claimant to the motorist; the fee for parking benefits the landowners, not the Claimant. Therefore, there is no consideration from the motorist to Excel Parking Services Ltd.

    2.6. Furthermore, in December 2016 Justice Minister Sir Oliver Heald announced a consultation and information campaign to help protect consumers. This was done on behalf of the government, specifically relating to the need for regulation changes to protect consumers. A direct quote from the official gov.uk website explains; "The action comes after concerns were raised that companies were issuing claims to consumers using incorrect addresses. Ministers say that is unacceptable and will consult on ways to protect people from having their credit ratings affected despite being unaware of the claims made against them. They will also examine to what extent unscrupulous debt agencies have contributed to the problem."

    2.7. On this basis I believe that the Claimant has not provided any reasonable cause of action and thus the claim should be dismissed in its entirety.


    That's everything. I welcome any and all constructive criticism. Failing that, tell me what's a load of xxxx! and I will try to amend.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th May 17, 11:21 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    2.4. A requirement of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is that this any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must be served within 14 days of the date of the alleged incident. There was no Notice affixed to the keeper's car (Evidence photo xxxx) and the Notice to Keeper did not arrive until more than one calendar month post hoc, on the xx/02/2014. Thus I submit the Claimant will not have complied with the requirements of the Act and thus cannot claim this charge against me as the Registered Keeper in any case.

    2.5.2. No Loss Suffered by Claimant: Their claim is presumably based on damages for alleged breach of contract. It is a fundamental principle of English Law that a party who suffers damages through breach of contract can only seek through court action to be put back in the same position as they would have been if the breach had not occurred. In order to do so, they must demonstrate their actual, or genuine, pre-estimate of loss. I submit that no loss has been suffered by the Claimant as a result of any alleged breaches of contract on the part of any motorist of the vehicle of which I am the Registered Keeper. I further submit that the landholder (which would be the only party able to claim such losses) received twice the statutory payment from myself, and thus there was no loss whatsoever incurred by the landowner.

    2.5.3. Claimed charge is an Unenforceable Penalty: I further submit that the Parking Charge that the Claimant claimed, given it is not based on any loss suffered due to the alleged breach, is nothing but an unenforceable penalty.

    The above are the points to remove. You can't use the POFA if you've already outed yourself as the driver. The POFA Schedule 4 relates to keepers only, not drivers.

    And the ParkingEye v Beavis case in Nov 2015, killed off any argument about 'no loss'.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 19th May 17, 12:08 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    Thanks for the feedback again.
    Can I not argue a the point in 2.4 that they didn't comply with the dates for NTK then?
    Having said that, this argument was adjusted from Saggi's excellent wording (I owe you one Saggi), the points in the 2012-2014 version states 14 days from keeper details received by PPC. Not sure if newer POFA can apply retrospectively.
    Or it that just a definite no in any case?

    Really liked the point you offered on Sir Oliver Herald, so much appreciated. I can tweak the overall wording for best effect.

    Does this sound like a strong case?

    PS I've since noticed a few possible points that could potentially undo this work. Would it be possible to share in a PM so as not to showy hand to any prying eyes... I'm sure any solicitor worth their salt will be aware of these forums.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 17, 12:13 AM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Can I not argue a the point in 2.4 that they didn't comply with the dates for NTK then?
    Nope, you blew those toes off when appealing as driver. There are NO deadlines for you to argue now.

    Does this sound like a strong case?
    Yes, it should be set aside IMHO.

    As for pm's, I don't take them (sorry) too busy at work to do any more than I do here dipping into threads to post & run. But you could ask another regular or just show it here, there are no secrets with a defence and BW Legal aren't the brightest, IMHO.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-05-2017 at 12:15 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 19th May 17, 11:13 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    Nope, you blew those toes off when appealing as driver. There are NO deadlines for you to argue now.
    Tell me about it... full 12 gauge style!!
    If that's the case, then I'll leave out as you recommend.
    I did this at POPLA stage btw, not knowing the evidence was shared... (d'oh!).

    No problem on the PM, it's understandable. Didn't want to ask really but it's more of something I hope the claimant doesn't notice. It may be irrelevant anyway but best omitted.

    Moving forward with this, if I submit this today;
    1. When should I hear back from the court?
    2. Is fee only paid if set aside is granted?
    3. Is the above WS an exhaustive list of my defence, or can I add other points prior to the hearing?
    4. How do I go about getting the set aside fee back? And is this likely?

    As unpopular as it might be, I'd like to still leave the option open to pay and have CCJ removed. I now believe this should be straight forward.
    Like I mentioned, the absolute key thing is to avoid a CCJ on my credit record!
    Otherwise, saving myself the money and sticking it to BW/Excel are desirable but not as important.

    Appreciate any quick tips on the above points. Sneaking in a quick post now but will only have a little time at lunch to research. And I usually end-up going round the houses with these sorts of things :')
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 17, 10:09 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,518 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Is fee only paid if set aside is granted?
    No, you have to pay £255 up front with the application. Awful, isn't it? A rogue claimant shells out merely £25 to cause this...

    You should hear in a few weeks from the Court, about the Set Aside application.

    Is the above WS an exhaustive list of my defence, or can I add other points prior to the hearing?
    You can add detail & evidence if they pursue it further after set aside.


    How do I go about getting the set aside fee back? And is this likely?
    Can't say how likely, sorry. I've seen it ordered in 2 threads here this year.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • iusedtoworkhere
    • By iusedtoworkhere 22nd May 17, 1:33 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    iusedtoworkhere
    Thanks Coupon. I did manage to speak to the Court on my Friday lunchtime and did answer some of the questions, although your comments make things even clearer.

    Basically, my options/possible outcomes are as follows;

    1. Pay soon and remove CCJ by request to the court. Should be a formality and all this mess goes away.

    2. Win set aside and be successful at hearing. Don't pay fine, probably pay set aside. About 'even' against my current situation. Possibly better, but not particularly high chances. A hopeful investment of time/money.

    3. Win set aside then lose hearing. Could be twice as bad off - i.e. pay both set aside and fine with no recourse.

    So on balance of the options, the most sane thing to do is pay up.
    Granted it's what Excel / BW want. It's also annoying to let them get away with it.
    However, the key thing being to avoid a CCJ - this will probably cost the same, as if I win the set aside. But there's no extra hassle.

    Am I understanding this correctly?

    Given the option to respond the CCJ initially, I'd have been all for it.
    Now, with most likely the same 'cost' whichever way I turn (although there's potential to be both better or worse-off) it seems the smartest thing to do.
    It seems although I can fight back, at this level it is massively against the defendant (aka victim...) to take legal recourse. Hopefully this will change with what's mentioned by Sir Heald.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

195Posts Today

1,187Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Byebye! I'm about to stop work & twitter, to instead spend glorious time with Mrs & mini MSE. Wishing u a lovely summer. See u in 10 days.

  • WARNING Did you start Uni in or after 2012? The interest's rising to 6.1%; yet it doesnt work like you think. See https://t.co/IQ8f0Vyetu RT

  • RT @JanaBeee: @MartinSLewis Boris is the anomaly (coffee), the others are versions of normal (beer). Lots of same candidates = vote share d?

  • Follow Martin