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    • Mrnick74
    • By Mrnick74 5th May 17, 10:23 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 13Thanks
    Mrnick74
    Court in 2 weeks
    • #1
    • 5th May 17, 10:23 PM
    Court in 2 weeks 5th May 17 at 10:23 PM
    I probably haven't handled this terribly well (ignored it for 3 years - actually it went strangely quiet until Parking Eye vs Beavis!) but now I get a day in court...

    I've just received a sheaf of 'evidence' (from BW Legal acting for Excel) that has been submitted to court (which I would link but I can't as new forum user).

    I'm no lawyer but it's got more than a few holes in it so I'll have a go at making a case and if the judge decides I do in fact owe these cowboys THREE HUNDRED QUID so be it I guess

    My main question at this stage is whether I should I submit a written defence or just verbally on the day? I'd probably prefer to do the latter but not sure what the protocol is?


    This is the only correspondence I've ever sent, relatively recently dated 07/02/2017:



    Dear Sir or Madam

    Please be advised that I will be defending this case.

    In your correspondence you have kindly brought to my attention the case of Parking Eye Limited vs Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 in which the Supreme Court held that parking charges serve a legitimate commercial interest, specifically to efficiently manage the car park for the benefit of the generality of users of the retail outlets. Given that I was patronising a restaurant served by the car park, that there is no ‘P & D Expiry’ entered on the ticket and I am able to evidence that I returned to my vehicle within an acceptable grace period as required by the IPC Code of Practice I shall contend that the circumstances of this case do not justify either the initial penalty of £100 or the escalating costs pursued.

    Furthermore, the case law deriving from UKSC 67 did not exist in February 2014 which is presumably why you have not brought a case until June 2016, 2 years and 4 months after the alleged incident. I have submitted a Freedom of Information Request to HM Courts & Tribunals Service for details of cases brought before the courts since the ruling of the Supreme Court in November 2015 in order to demonstrate an unscrupulous opportunism to pursue historic Parking Charge Notices where the particulars of the case have so little in common with UKSC 67 as to make reliance on that case irrelevant.

    I wish to note also that my surname has been consistently misspelled on all correspondence meaning that it is likely I have not received all communication on this matter.

    Regards
Page 3
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 18th May 17, 2:06 PM
    • 696 Posts
    • 1,526 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Good luck for tomorrow.

    Do you know about challenging rights of audience?
    • Mrnick74
    • By Mrnick74 19th May 17, 9:19 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Mrnick74
    Claim dismissed!
    Lamilad deserves a knighthood I reckon. Or a Damehood

    I arrived at court early with 3 copies of a challenge to RoA provided, like my extensive WS, by Sir Lamilad (sorry if you're actually a lady, I have no idea). The ushers seemed a bit surprised that I was trying to give them additional material and sent me to window 2 to log it in. The corpulent gentleman there seemed even more non-plussed and echoed "Preliminary Material"? as though I was speaking Esperanto. I went back into the waiting area to be greeted by the representative for the Claimant (boo!) who offered me a "conference"...and revealed she was not employed by BWL. A bit pepped up by nerves I demanded to know who she was and immediately tapped her name into solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk on my phone. She politely enquired what I was doing and when I told her said "Oh you won't find me in there".

    "What are your qualifications?" I demanded.

    Somewhat insouciant "Well I've got a law degree". To be fair she was unflappable throughout

    "HA! Then you have no Right of Audience!" I squawked in triumph "I've got a document for you, come with me." by this point verging on Basil Fawlty meets the Gestapo, whereupon we ran round in circles trying to catch up with the Preliminary Matters which I'd left at window 2...but her copy of which was now back with the ushers.

    We sat in silence while she read through and made notes and my heartbeat returned to normal. Confess I thought I was home and dry. I wasn't.

    When we got in with the judge he was reading through the same document with rather more composure and quizzed the lady on her qualifications, it transpired she had been in front of him before "on numerous occasions" but he did seem to me genuinely surprised that she wasn't a qualified solicitor. I still thought this could be over in round 1...but the law degree kicked in and she convinced him that she was in fact an exemption. I didn't really follow to be honest, something to do with being properly instructed by a solicitor. The man in the chair was satisfied she did have RoA after all but acknowledged my concerns and suggested he was more interested by the lack of a witness, upon which point my opponent had to concede.

    The whole thing after that was essentially about signage.

    I'd read the various cases supplied by Sir L but in the heat of the moment was only really able to call upon Cutts. I noted the time stamps on the photographs and he acknowledged this called into question they being the same as at the time of the contravention (in the absence of a witness). The lady insisted that signage was in keeping with BPA guidelines but he was dismissive and studied them himself before requiring her to identify in the T&C where it stated that an overstay after purchasing a valid ticket, as I had done, would incur a £100 charge. We sat there in silence for 5 minutes while she examined the various images of the signs, drawing comment from the judge that she was using an iPad to expand the images rather than relying on the photocopies we all had (they would have been bigger and easier to see in the car park she said.)

    Of course there was no such unambiguous term on any of the signs, even in the small print. I quoted Denning's Red Hand rule, to which he nodded, but by that point it was pretty redundant I think.

    I still wasn't entirely confident it would go my way during his summing up but it came down to the lack of explicit, clear T&C describing that my particular contravention would be subject to a £100 charge. He dismissed the claim and thanked us both for the way we had presented our evidence. Then I went home.

    Massive thanks again to Lamilad, I couldn't have done it without him. Or her.

    And I hope the lady with the law degree qualifies as a proper legal professional and does something a bit more worthwhile. Human rights or something.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th May 17, 9:31 PM
    • 13,586 Posts
    • 21,302 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Nice report, had me smiling. Nice result. Did you submit a cost schedule?

    Lamilad - Ian Lamoureux (as I understand it) - becoming a star of this forum.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 17, 9:34 PM
    • 48,133 Posts
    • 61,567 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    "What are your qualifications?" I demanded.

    Somewhat insouciant "Well I've got a law degree". To be fair she was unflappable throughout

    "HA! Then you have no Right of Audience!" I squawked in triumph "I've got a document for you, come with me." by this point verging on Basil Fawlty meets the Gestapo, whereupon we ran round in circles trying to catch up with the Preliminary Matters which I'd left at window 2...but her copy of which was now back with the ushers.
    Haha!

    Interesting to note you actually won on signage issues though. Very well done to you and Sir Lamilad (Ian)!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 19th May 17, 11:17 PM
    • 696 Posts
    • 1,526 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Really pleased you got the result. A WS and evidence can only take you so far, you still have to do the biz in court so well done.

    I'll be honest, my hopes were not high for this one - the OP had admitted being the driver and seeing the signs. The claimant had also produced a contract from the landowner.

    So it was all down to attacking signage and 'Ex turpi causa non oritur actio'... Creds to Matthew87 for the email from Bury council about illegal signs

    Excel signs are awful so it's good that the courts recognise this and gives us something else to attack when PoFA is not an option.

    Mrnick please could we have your claim number and the name of the the judge - if you can't remember let us know when you get the judgement through. I gather this was Leeds court?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 19th May 17, 11:19 PM
    • 696 Posts
    • 1,526 Thanks
    Lamilad
    By the way it's 'Sir' Lamilad
    Last edited by Lamilad; 20-05-2017 at 2:58 AM.
    • Mrnick74
    • By Mrnick74 20th May 17, 6:50 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Mrnick74
    I did mention the illegal sign but he didn't seem interested, it was simply the lack of explicit T&C.

    I don't recall the judge's name unfortunately. Will I get a full written transcript of the judgement?
    • Mrnick74
    • By Mrnick74 20th May 17, 7:01 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Mrnick74
    No, didn't bother with costs. Was never about the money but the principle! I'm not self employed though did need to take half a day off work, I ran to work like I do every Friday, usually go on my bike (saves on parking!) and I walked down to the court so no travel costs to speak of.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 20th May 17, 8:26 AM
    • 5,511 Posts
    • 7,090 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Mrnick74 .... BRILLIANT

    Sir Lamilad ... that's got a good ring to it, he certainly is a star performer


    Reminds me of "Buffy the Vampire slayer"

    Until next time Excel
    Last edited by beamerguy; 20-05-2017 at 8:33 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 20th May 17, 1:15 PM
    • 696 Posts
    • 1,526 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Will I get a full written transcript of the judgement?
    No you will just get a letter confirming the judgement. This will have the name of the judge on it.

    You can apply for a transcript of the judgement which others could then use to fight similar cases. Cost depends on how long the judge was summing up for but usually around £50-60.
    • Mrnick74
    • By Mrnick74 20th May 17, 1:17 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Mrnick74
    Ah ok, well I reckon I owe that to the community!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th May 17, 1:19 PM
    • 48,133 Posts
    • 61,567 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Good!

    Lamilad got his transcript for the community a few months ago (Excel v Lamoureux, at Skipton) so it's great if more can do the same.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 20th May 17, 1:54 PM
    • 696 Posts
    • 1,526 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Ah ok, well I reckon I owe that to the community!
    Originally posted by Mrnick74
    It would be fantastic if you could get the transcript, esp as this was a case won on poor signage alone.

    It's really easy to do, you just complete the ex107 and email it to the transcriber. All explained here:
    https://www.appletranscription.co.uk/court-transcription/

    You can do a Google search to find a full list of authorised UK court transcribers. I used Apple but others may be cheaper.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 20th May 17, 3:45 PM
    • 967 Posts
    • 1,671 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Esperanto..... it's a while since I heard that. I had a teacher once who could speak it!

    Well done anyway....
    • harrys dad
    • By harrys dad 20th May 17, 3:48 PM
    • 1,788 Posts
    • 1,995 Thanks
    harrys dad
    This is the most wonderful supportive community I have ever met on the internet. I have never needed to use this forum at all, but did recently make a successful appeal against a windscreen penalty charge notice affixed to the foodbank van (clearly signed) whilst parked outside the foodbank.

    There are some real stars on here, I am surprised these parking cowboys haven't tried to buy them off
    • Molts
    • By Molts 20th May 17, 4:52 PM
    • 57 Posts
    • 146 Thanks
    Molts
    Well done team, especially Sir Ian! And thank you Mrnick74 for such a smashing court report - had me grinning like a Cheshire cat
    • Mrnick74
    • By Mrnick74 21st May 17, 10:02 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Mrnick74
    Well so much for karma. I was rugby tackled off my bike at 7:30 this morning by a drunken maniac. He was arrested for assault and criminal damage. Perhaps a BW Legal solicitor letting his hair down?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 21st May 17, 10:17 PM
    • 13,586 Posts
    • 21,302 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Perhaps a BW Legal solicitor letting his hair down?
    Or drowning his sorrows.

    Sorry to hear this. A pretty bad case, being totally blootered at 7:30am!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st May 17, 10:44 PM
    • 48,133 Posts
    • 61,567 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Well so much for karma. I was rugby tackled off my bike at 7:30 this morning by a drunken maniac. He was arrested for assault and criminal damage. Perhaps a BW Legal solicitor letting his hair down?
    Originally posted by Mrnick74
    Ouch, you poor thing!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 21st May 17, 11:57 PM
    • 696 Posts
    • 1,526 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Some absolute lunatics about. One good thing about BW Legal is they keep most of them off our streets by employing them as solicitors.

    Hope your ok Mrnick74
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