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  • FIRST POST
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 28th Apr 17, 1:50 PM
    • 61Posts
    • 38Thanks
    lafferdog
    SIP Court case help
    • #1
    • 28th Apr 17, 1:50 PM
    SIP Court case help 28th Apr 17 at 1:50 PM
    Hi There,

    I am after some advice or help with a court case I have coming up in June with SIP in manchester.

    Quick overview of the case:
    Last summer I parked at one of their car parks and parked on some cross hatch markings, the markings were worn out to the point of being barley visible, I was in no way blocking anything or anyone in and I have seen cars on them before. There are no other markings in the car park, it is just a load of baron rubble.

    I got a ticket, which on the back said I could appeal, and if the appeal was rejected I could pay £60. So appealed and explained the above. A week or so later I received a letter saying I owed £100, I replied saying I had appealed and resent the appeal. Again this was ignored and a new fine of £150 was sent. At this point I wrote to say they had ignored my appeals and so I was going to ignore them.

    In January I was contacted by Gladstones solicitors who had taken on their case and they wanted £240. Explained everything to them and we are now going to court in June.

    I have no idea what to do with preparing for a court case. I have tried to get free legal help but not had any luck with that so hoping someone here might be able to help me form my case or let me know what I need to do as it would be a nightmare to lose based on anything technical that I don't understand.

    I have applied for mediation, and willing to pay the £60 that was the original fine, but I feel I shouldn't really have to pay anything due to the hassle this is causing. Will have to take a day off work too which is an expense.

    I feel like I have followed all the instructions they offered with the appeal of the ticket, they just seem to hike up the fine at every opportunity and harass and try and scare me to pay up.

    Thanks in advance for any help people can offer.
Page 4
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 6th Jul 17, 7:10 AM
    • 1,564 Posts
    • 2,882 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    I got my witness statement from Gladstones, is it worth me scanning it and posting it on here
    The contract might be useful but the text will be a template.

    Are the pics date stamped. Are the pics of the signs real pics or have they put up a facsimile of the sign they say was there on the day. Is there a site plan and does that match the reality.

    Often you will find if you check there are issues with timestamps. The signs don't represent those that were actually there (check Google Street View) as is the number and location of the signs they say were there.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 6th Jul 17, 1:49 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    They are denying receipt of my original appeals, which were almost a year ago so no way of proving I sent them which is a bit of a worry.
    Pics are date stamped and correct, there is no pic of the actual sign, just a graphic of it and measurements of how big it was.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 6th Jul 17, 3:54 PM
    • 520 Posts
    • 934 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Check that the graphic is the same as the signage on site. Wording varies across different sites and is of course the basis for the alleged contract. It is also why the Claimant is unlikely to make the full amount of the charges now sought stick
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 6th Jul 17, 4:44 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Check that the graphic is the same as the signage on site. Wording varies across different sites and is of course the basis for the alleged contract. It is also why the Claimant is unlikely to make the full amount of the charges now sought stick
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    The actual site no longer exists so hard to say if wording is the same.
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 6th Jul 17, 6:45 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Just thought I have the original appeal document and the date it was created, doesn't prove I posted it but proves that I made one on that date, would that be worth taking long? I guess I could screenshot it or take it on my laptop?

    If it comes down to them just denying receipt of it, even though I phoned them and they said they don't respond to appeals, someone at Gladstones told me the same, how will that play out?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 6th Jul 17, 6:57 PM
    • 1,564 Posts
    • 2,882 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    The actual site no longer exists so hard to say if wording is the same.
    Use Google Street View as sometimes you can go back in time to see the type of signs in place. But you must point out to the judge there is no evidence the signs were there at the time - unlike council wardens who have pics of the car and the signs on the day.

    Edit: Can't recall if you have given the name of the site but there will be a POPLA appeal / court case out there where SIP have already provided the information previously for you to check. Most of their sites will have had an appeal or even a court case where there is a possibility of the real signs have been submitted. So ask around.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 06-07-2017 at 6:59 PM.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 7th Jul 17, 9:09 AM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    what do you think about them denying receipt of my appeals? Should i print out the fact they were created on the dates I claim to have sent them?

    Do I mention I spoke to them on the phone and they both said they dont respond to claims?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Jul 17, 9:38 AM
    • 14,979 Posts
    • 23,530 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Do anything which you feel will help your defence.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 7th Jul 17, 3:22 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    I just called the court an their witness statement isn't filed yet. They said I could mail to say I have checked and it was late, do I simply say in the email that I want to log that their witness statement is late?

    I am intending to submit costs on Tuesday, should I send this email now or both together on Tuesday?

    Just to add thats mail the court to say they were late with their WS.
    Last edited by lafferdog; 07-07-2017 at 6:47 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jul 17, 11:52 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,139 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would email the court now, to point out the claimant's WS is late/not received. After all, that email will just be to the court, whereas on Tuesday you will be emailing the court and Gladstones with the costs schedule.

    Don't worry that they are denying receiving an appeal. SIP would have refused it anyway, because IPC firms always do.

    And yes, you could include in the bundle you take to court, a screenshot of the creation date of your appeal letter and you can rely on the Interpretations Act, a letter posted 1st class is 'deemed delivered' 2 working days later. You appealed, say so and be confident and come across as an honest witness (parking firms struggle with that).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 11th Jul 17, 10:42 AM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Sent everything I need to, hearing is thursday. Just going to do some reading on right of attendance and get the number to text ready. Other than that I have made some notes on things like the interpretations act.

    Does the screenshot of the creation date of my files need to be emailed to both too? Or just take it along?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Jul 17, 4:31 PM
    • 14,979 Posts
    • 23,530 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Just going to do some reading on right of attendance
    Right of Audience. Need to have the terminology right to argue the case with credibility in front of a judge.

    I understand it can be a tricky one to argue, unless you're fully in charge of your brief.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 12th Jul 17, 11:37 AM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Two things:

    1. Prepare a costs schedule (example in the NEWBIES thread) and in it, ask for punitive costs, because this claimant has brought a wholly vexatious and unreasonable claim then not even bothered to file a Witness Statement, relying on sparse particulars and no evidence.

    An example of how to ask for those costs under the CPR, is in a post by LoadsofChildren123 that I think I linked near the costs schedule example in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.

    You must file the costs schedule no later than a couple of days in advance, and copy in Gladstones, and keep proof that you did send them the WS (you must have sent them a copy?) and the costs schedule (print off the sent emails and even better copy yourself in or mark it for a 'read receipt').


    2. Read up on how to challenge the possible lack of Rights of Audience of the solicitor's agent or barrister who Gladstones throw at this case on the day. The BMPA are offering a trial text service where you can text the name of the rep who turns up and find out if they appear to have RoA (ask them outside of the court, who they are, how they spell their name and what Rights of Audience do they have - and don't believe them if they mutter something about 'I am a solicitor/barrister' or 'I regularly appear at this court, and have never been challenged before').

    This is a bit complicated to get your head around, but IS worth it because their rep can actually be barred from speaking, and then you can go for the jugular and object that the claimant hasn't sent anyone with RoA, nor a witness, so the claim should be struck out.

    Game over, if so, like Publican Paul on pepipoo did at Brighton court, despite the Judge grumbling at first 'oh that rep is OK, they often appear here'! That newbie poster learnt about and prepared that line of attack, last minute with just days to go:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113246

    Search the parking forum for 'Audience' and read where people have done this before, and find the Parking Prankster's blog about it with links to the Law Gazette Article, and the relevant case law, to print out and hand to the Judge as a preliminary matter to raise on the spot, before any other discussion about anything.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have been searching but getting nowhere in finding this article and case law to print out, I am a bit nervous about if I can do it correct on the day. Also I cant seem to find the phonenumber to text. I promise I am not being lazy, I have been searching for teh last hour
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jul 17, 2:52 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,139 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The case law (McShane) and the Law Gazette article is here in the 'Prankster Notes':

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/parkingeye-win-and-are-awarded.html

    and also here, already downloaded by Matthew87 in his OneDrive, which also includes his 'preliminary matters' document that you can copy/adapt:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72489107#post72489107

    BMPA phone number to 'check the rep' by text is here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72626808#post72626808

    HTH
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 12th Jul 17, 8:49 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    ok thanks, all sorted I think.
    one last question, how do I work out which person outside is the prosecution, is it obvious?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jul 17, 9:03 PM
    • 16,110 Posts
    • 20,176 Thanks
    Redx
    you need to read other court claim threads that have concluded , that way you get the reports , which make interesting reading with first hand accounts

    like this one , that was updated last week and actually answers your question

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5567539&page=17

    it may well answer any more that occur to you too

    the more you read, the more you learn

    good luck
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jul 17, 9:40 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,139 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    how do I work out which person outside is the prosecution
    There is no prosecution! This isn't a criminal 'trial' it's one side saying you owe them money and you saying 'no I don't (more like Judge Rinder). No prosecution, not that scary. One defendant earlier this week said 'it was all over in 10 minutes, it was ace!'

    Get there early and ask the court usher, when you sign in, to tell you when the other side's rep signs in.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 13th Jul 17, 4:53 AM
    • 1,564 Posts
    • 2,882 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    how do I work out which person outside is the prosecution
    From the BMPA daily list, it looks to be a shedload of SIP Cases at Manchester (7) and 4 others so 11 there in all. There will be more than one Elms Legal people there but the Usher will be able to give you the name of the person for your case. So when you go in to the Waiting Room and give your name, ask for the name of the person representing SIP on your particular case.

    Good luck

    PS You could be waiting for ages and then having your case over in 5 minutes. So take a book or a magazine.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 13th Jul 17, 3:37 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Hi, I won!

    It felt like the judge was searching for something to help me out, in the end it was the fact they didnt have a map of where their signs were. I said there were none by the parking machine or the entrance and had a photo of the machine with no signs. so he used that to throw it out.

    thanks so much for the help and effort i would have been screwed without it.

    there were 2 in b4 me with sip, it was a member of their staff representing, he seemed to be way out of his depth in the courtroom and I felt pretty confident thanks to the support on here.

    thanks again, i can finally relax!!
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 13th Jul 17, 3:40 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    I tried to get some costs back at the end, but the judge was unsure. in the end he awarded me travel and print outs costs so got £20, not brilliant but it will be the best £20 I ever get.

    The lady before me won too, not sure about the guy who was in first.

    The judge at the end gave them a slight bolloking about their appeals process saying its ridiculous.
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