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  • FIRST POST
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 28th Apr 17, 1:50 PM
    • 61Posts
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    lafferdog
    SIP Court case help
    • #1
    • 28th Apr 17, 1:50 PM
    SIP Court case help 28th Apr 17 at 1:50 PM
    Hi There,

    I am after some advice or help with a court case I have coming up in June with SIP in manchester.

    Quick overview of the case:
    Last summer I parked at one of their car parks and parked on some cross hatch markings, the markings were worn out to the point of being barley visible, I was in no way blocking anything or anyone in and I have seen cars on them before. There are no other markings in the car park, it is just a load of baron rubble.

    I got a ticket, which on the back said I could appeal, and if the appeal was rejected I could pay £60. So appealed and explained the above. A week or so later I received a letter saying I owed £100, I replied saying I had appealed and resent the appeal. Again this was ignored and a new fine of £150 was sent. At this point I wrote to say they had ignored my appeals and so I was going to ignore them.

    In January I was contacted by Gladstones solicitors who had taken on their case and they wanted £240. Explained everything to them and we are now going to court in June.

    I have no idea what to do with preparing for a court case. I have tried to get free legal help but not had any luck with that so hoping someone here might be able to help me form my case or let me know what I need to do as it would be a nightmare to lose based on anything technical that I don't understand.

    I have applied for mediation, and willing to pay the £60 that was the original fine, but I feel I shouldn't really have to pay anything due to the hassle this is causing. Will have to take a day off work too which is an expense.

    I feel like I have followed all the instructions they offered with the appeal of the ticket, they just seem to hike up the fine at every opportunity and harass and try and scare me to pay up.

    Thanks in advance for any help people can offer.
Page 3
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 11th Jun 17, 9:47 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Oh thank goodness, I was going by a previous post where I think you said the hearing was on 15th.

    So, don't help their case:





    What evidence have you got to submit with the WS? Photos of the unmarked/unsigned area? IMHO you need them urgently, and/or a video would be good.

    What about adding that there was no entrance sign, so there was nothing to tell you that the car park was 'managed' or restricted. And that you understand this is contrary to the Code of Practice.


    Have you already admitted that you were driving? I think you did but no time to keep looking back...
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have photos of the hatched area that is worn out, and other areas of the carpark to show there are no markings anywhere else and it is just rubble. I could go and video tomorrow but it is closed and I think they have started building on it.

    I have the original ticket and highlighted the bit about appeals. And I have the ticket I bought that day, do I need to include these?

    Will add that there was no entrance sign as there wasnt, I am pretty sure I admitted I was driving as I say I returned to my car.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jun 17, 9:53 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    OK. Yes you need to append your evidence, as you will have seen from all the examples you must have just gone and looked at in the NEWBIES thread post #2. They show you have to number your evidence and mention it in the WS.

    So as it was pay & display and you paid in good faith, say that. Add that.

    Change the bit I wrote so it doesn't say 'no restrictions' but certainly remove the times you go on about 'seeing faded hatched lines' but 'assuming' they were not in use. It looks bad, so don't say that.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 11th Jun 17, 9:54 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Here is an updated version.

    I assert that I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all, for the following reasons:

    • I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, no. xxxx xxx. The Claim relates to an alleged debt arising from the vehicle having been parked on a poorly-marked parking area of Islington Wharf Car Park in Manchester, on xx xx xxxx.

    • I returned to my car to find a ticket issued. When I left the car I was unaware of any restrictions or terms for parking. Apart from a few very faded lines, there are no markings anywhere in the car park.
    I have attached photo evidence of the poorly marked hatched area and examples of the rest of the carpark to show there are no other markings.

    • There was no signage near or around the faded hatched area to make it clear that it was an area not to be parked on.

    • There was no entrance sign, so there was nothing to tell me that the car park was 'managed' or restricted. I understand this is contrary to the Code of Practice.

    • The ticket offered the opportunity to appeal which I did straight away with photos of the area in question. Around 10 days later I received a letter saying I now owed £100, and there was no acknowledgement of my appeal letter, so I wrote back to say I had appealed and resent the original appeal letter. On xxxxxx I received another letter from SIP saying I now owed £125, I resent the appeal as there was still no acknowledgement of it. I have attached a copy of the ticket issued and highlighted the appeals section.

    • On the 25th of January I received a letter from Gladstones Solicitors saying I then owed £250. This whole thing has caused a lot of stress and worry, as well as taken up much of my time including the day off work I will need to take to go to court.

    I believe the facts stated in this witness statement are true.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jun 17, 10:00 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    When I left the car I was unaware of any restrictions or terms for parking.
    You need to spend more time on this. No rushing it. As I said, you can't say the above if it was pay & display, of course you were aware of some terms or you wouldn't have paid & displayed.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 11th Jun 17, 10:09 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    OK. Yes you need to append your evidence, as you will have seen from all the examples you must have just gone and looked at in the NEWBIES thread post #2. They show you have to number your evidence and mention it in the WS.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have been searching through the threads in post 2 and cant seem to see any examples, do you have a link to one I can use as reference?

    I will remove the bit about restrictions and add in the fact I paid in good faith.
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 11th Jun 17, 10:25 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    I have been doing some more reading and I am just getting more and more confused. I am going to sleep on it and read it through again tomorrow night, thats my last chance to get it right.

    This gave me some hope but still find it quite intimidating.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5650032&page=4
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 12th Jun 17, 7:26 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    ok, so here is where I am up to, I think thats how to add in images? I am creating a neat pdf later and will print on A4 and send in a nice binded sleeve?

    Is there anything missing??

    I assert that I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all, for the following reasons:

    • I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, no. xxxx xxx. The Claim relates to an alleged debt arising from the vehicle having been parked on a poorly-marked parking area of Islington Wharf Car Park in Manchester, on xx xx xxxx.

    • I returned to my car to find a ticket issued. When I left the car I was unaware of any restrictions or terms for parking. Apart from a few very faded lines, there are no markings anywhere in the car park.
    I have attached photo evidence of the poorly marked hatched area and examples of the rest of the carpark to show there are no other markings (See Exhibit 1).

    • There was no signage near or around the faded hatched area to make it clear that it was an area not to be parked on.

    • I bought a ticket at the machine so paid for my parking in good faith,(See Exhibit 2).

    • The ticket offered the opportunity to appeal which I did straight away with photos of the area in question. Around 10 days later I received a letter saying I now owed £100, and there was no acknowledgement of my appeal letter, so I wrote back to say I had appealed and resent the original appeal letter. On xxxxxx I received another letter from SIP saying I now owed £125, I resent the appeal as there was still no acknowledgement of it. (See Exhibit 3).

    • On the 25th of January I received a letter from Gladstones Solicitors saying I then owed £250, I have tried to mediate and communicate with SIP and Gladstones, but they had forced the situation to end up in court.

    • This whole thing has caused a lot of stress and worry, as well as taken up much of my time including the day off work I will need to take to go to court.

    • I have also attached the correspondence letters between myself, SIP and Gladstones.

    I believe the facts stated in this witness statement are true.
    Last edited by lafferdog; 12-06-2017 at 9:30 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jun 17, 11:04 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Looks OK as a Witness Statement. Just the facts, and some evidence. And you've done that.

    Show us Gladstones effort, when you get it!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 13th Jun 17, 5:57 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Sorry one more question before I send.

    Do I send the court originals of the letters and ticket, or copies?

    Do I need to send £25, it isnt that clear in the court letter if I need to or not?

    Finally do I need to put a contents page at the beginning?

    I am thinking i will hand deliver to court at lunch tomorrow, at least I know it is then done.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 17, 6:04 PM
    • 48,395 Posts
    • 61,842 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Copies of documents. Take the originals on the day, plus proof of this WS 7 evidence scans being emailed to the other side, in case they pretend they didn't get it.

    Why on earth would you pay the Claimant's hearing fee for them?! You are not the Claimant.

    Finally do I need to put a contents page at the beginning?
    Ideally, yes, with page numbering to make the file easy for the Judge to follow.

    Claim number in the front, with the words 'Witness Statement and evidence from the Defendant'.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 13th Jun 17, 7:46 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Great stuff, and thanks so much for the time you have spent helping me out. Will update with any news or anything i get back from Gladstones.
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 3rd Jul 17, 1:29 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    My court date is next week, I submitted my Witness statement all fine.
    I just called court to see if the claimant had as I havent received anything from them and they say that nothing has been sent.

    Is there anything I need to prepare for the court hearing next week??
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jul 17, 7:03 PM
    • 48,395 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Two things:

    1. Prepare a costs schedule (example in the NEWBIES thread) and in it, ask for punitive costs, because this claimant has brought a wholly vexatious and unreasonable claim then not even bothered to file a Witness Statement, relying on sparse particulars and no evidence.

    An example of how to ask for those costs under the CPR, is in a post by LoadsofChildren123 that I think I linked near the costs schedule example in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.

    You must file the costs schedule no later than a couple of days in advance, and copy in Gladstones, and keep proof that you did send them the WS (you must have sent them a copy?) and the costs schedule (print off the sent emails and even better copy yourself in or mark it for a 'read receipt').


    2. Read up on how to challenge the possible lack of Rights of Audience of the solicitor's agent or barrister who Gladstones throw at this case on the day. The BMPA are offering a trial text service where you can text the name of the rep who turns up and find out if they appear to have RoA (ask them outside of the court, who they are, how they spell their name and what Rights of Audience do they have - and don't believe them if they mutter something about 'I am a solicitor/barrister' or 'I regularly appear at this court, and have never been challenged before').

    This is a bit complicated to get your head around, but IS worth it because their rep can actually be barred from speaking, and then you can go for the jugular and object that the claimant hasn't sent anyone with RoA, nor a witness, so the claim should be struck out.

    Game over, if so, like Publican Paul on pepipoo did at Brighton court, despite the Judge grumbling at first 'oh that rep is OK, they often appear here'! That newbie poster learnt about and prepared that line of attack, last minute with just days to go:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113246

    Search the parking forum for 'Audience' and read where people have done this before, and find the Parking Prankster's blog about it with links to the Law Gazette Article, and the relevant case law, to print out and hand to the Judge as a preliminary matter to raise on the spot, before any other discussion about anything.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-07-2017 at 7:10 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 3rd Jul 17, 7:18 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Two things:

    1. Prepare a costs schedule (example in the NEWBIES thread) and in it, ask for punitive costs, because this claimant has brought a wholly vexatious and unreasonable claim then not even bothered to file a Witness Statement, relying on sparse particulars and no evidence.

    An example of how to ask for those costs under the CPR, is in a post by LoadsofChildren123 that I think I linked near the costs schedule example in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.

    You must file the costs schedule no later than a couple of days in advance, and copy in Gladstones, and keep proof that you did send them the WS (you must have sent them a copy?) and the costs schedule (print off the sent emails and even better copy yourself in or mark it for a 'read receipt').


    2. Read up on how to challenge the possible lack of Rights of Audience of the solicitor's agent or barrister who Gladstones throw at this case on the day. The BMPA are offering a trial text service where you can text the name of the rep who turns up and find out if they appear to have RoA (ask them outside of the court, who they are, how they spell their name and what Rights of Audience do they have - and don't believe them if they mutter something about 'I am a solicitor/barrister' or 'I regularly appear at this court, and have never been challenged before').

    This is a bit complicated to get your head around, but IS worth it because their rep can actually be barred from speaking, and then you can go for the jugular and object that the claimant hasn't sent anyone with RoA, nor a witness, so the claim should be struck out.

    Game over, if so, like Publican Paul on pepipoo did at Brighton court, despite the Judge grumbling at first 'oh that rep is OK, they often appear here'! That newbie poster learnt about and prepared that line of attack, last minute with just days to go:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113246

    Search the parking forum for 'Audience' and read where people have done this before, and find the Parking Prankster's blog about it with links to the Law Gazette Article, and the relevant case law, to print out and hand to the Judge as a preliminary matter to raise on the spot, before any other discussion about anything.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I am not sure I will be confident enough to challenge or bring up papers in court, more likely to !!!! it up. But I will read as much as I can and see if I can work it out. Is there any paper work other than my original documents and witness statement I need to take? And the cot schedule of corse.
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 3rd Jul 17, 7:25 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    should I be worried about walking out next week with a massive fine?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jul 17, 7:28 PM
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    • 61,842 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Your evidence that you filed with your WS, to prove your case? You can't just go along with your defence and Witness Statement & costs. As I said, you need your evidence filed:

    What evidence have you got to submit with the WS? Photos of the unmarked/unsigned area? IMHO you need them urgently, and/or a video would be good.
    Re the RoA, you would not be 'challenging or bringing up papers'. You would be texting the Rep's name, to the BMPA, and getting a text back telling you if they think the person has no right to speak - you would be MAD not to then raise that huge point!

    Publican Paul managed it, all you need is the Law Gazette & case law...you can read up on it. Not that difficult, can't be mucked up. If the Judge isn't interested at all and refuses to ask the rep about their RoA, when you politely ask, then move on.

    Arrive half an hour early to get through security, and don't chat too much with the rep, just get their name. They will try to hand you documents or talk you into settling - take NOTHING from them on the spot. Nothing.

    should I be worried about walking out next week with a massive fine?
    Originally posted by lafferdog
    I don't think you are following what this is about. That's impossible. This isn't a fine and can't get 'massive'

    You MUST understand the issues, please read what I've told you to read, or I will consider that you have decided not to take our advice, and if you lose, you will be the first in a year (but would not have been 'coached' by us, if you are not listening then it's all down to you). I've told you how to win.

    What evidence did you file? Did you serve a copy to Gladstones with the WS?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-07-2017 at 7:32 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 3rd Jul 17, 8:30 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    Your evidence that you filed with your WS, to prove your case? You can't just go along with your defence and Witness Statement & costs. As I said, you need your evidence filed:



    Re the RoA, you would not be 'challenging or bringing up papers'. You would be texting the Rep's name, to the BMPA, and getting a text back telling you if they think the person has no right to speak - you would be MAD not to then raise that huge point!

    Publican Paul managed it, all you need is the Law Gazette & case law...you can read up on it. Not that difficult, can't be mucked up. If the Judge isn't interested at all and refuses to ask the rep about their RoA, when you politely ask, then move on.

    Arrive half an hour early to get through security, and don't chat too much with the rep, just get their name. They will try to hand you documents or talk you into settling - take NOTHING from them on the spot. Nothing.



    I don't think you are following what this is about. That's impossible. This isn't a fine and can't get 'massive'

    You MUST understand the issues, please read what I've told you to read, or I will consider that you have decided not to take our advice, and if you lose, you will be the first in a year (but would not have been 'coached' by us, if you are not listening then it's all down to you). I've told you how to win.

    What evidence did you file? Did you serve a copy to Gladstones with the WS?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    In my witness statement I had photos of the badly marked area, and the rest of the carpark to show that it was not marked out at all, and copies of my letters to and from them and the ticket itself.

    I sent gladstones and sip a copy of the WS by email last week.

    I will do my best to read up on ROA and will send the text, I just cant picture what I need to do and where to sit or how to approach the judge and stuff, never been in this situation before. I am sure more reading will help, just a bit daunting.
    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 3rd Jul 17, 8:32 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    I will file my costs this week, that should mean technically everything is submitted and in order?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jul 17, 12:29 PM
    • 48,395 Posts
    • 61,842 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes indeed.

    Why not read other people's court reports about what happens on the day?

    I added one (a pepipoo post) only this week to the links in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread, and he gave some tips about what to expect.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 04-07-2017 at 12:32 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • lafferdog
    • By lafferdog 5th Jul 17, 7:51 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    lafferdog
    I got my witness statement from Gladstones, is it worth me scanning it and posting it on here?
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