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  • FIRST POST
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 28th Apr 17, 9:48 AM
    • 13Posts
    • 6Thanks
    ParkingFun
    Parking Fine - Advice
    • #1
    • 28th Apr 17, 9:48 AM
    Parking Fine - Advice 28th Apr 17 at 9:48 AM
    Hi all,

    Ok, so I've read through all the guidance and a LOT of the advice which has been previously offered.

    Today I realised 2 tickets have been given to a vehicle of which I am the registered keeper. The reason for these being issued as defined in the NTK/PCN for both is: 'Failure to park within a marked bay'

    Now one PCN was issued via post by One Parking Solution, and 2 days later another PCN was issued by them and physically put onto the motorbike. Looking around the car park I have noted there are signs for Horizon Parking and could not see any clear signs for One Parking Solution until really looking around.

    I believe the area which the vehicle parked was subject to the jurisdiction of Horizon Parking.

    Now the One Parking signs are not clear and are very small (probably a font size 20) and not clearly visible, nor would you go looking for them after reviewing the Horizon signs, the ones which are believed to be applicable at the time. You'll see what I mean in the attached pictures.

    Anyway, on OP99 they have the incorrect address, on the OP19 they have the correct keeper address. Do I correct them and let them know their error so that I can get them to review both? I know at this stage I'm likely outside the appeal window as these were issued in January.

    Anyway I'm attaching pictures of the Horizon signs (for comparison), One Parking Solution sign, and all currently received letters (with personal information removed)

    Also, a quick additional note, the car on the kerb in OP99 NTK/PCN did not receive the same notice.

    I look forward to your advice.

    http://imgur.com/a/PifQt < All images have been uploaded to this folder.


    OP99
    Alleged offence date 03/01/2017
    Postal PCN - Date of sending 25/01/2017
    NTK - Date of sending 24/02/2017
    NTK - Received 27/02/2017

    OP19
    Alleged offence date 05/01/2017
    PCN was left on the Motorbike seat
    NTK - Date of sending 16/03/2017
    NTK - Received 20/03/2017
    Last edited by ParkingFun; 15-06-2017 at 6:18 PM. Reason: adding info for future responders
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 28th Apr 17, 9:59 AM
    • 39,595 Posts
    • 79,193 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 28th Apr 17, 9:59 AM
    • #2
    • 28th Apr 17, 9:59 AM
    Redact the PCN numbers from your post NOW!

    You can upload images to a web hosting site such as tunypic or photobucket (but don't register the account in your real name) then post the URLs here but change http to hxxp. Someone here will then change it back to a live link.

    Get photos of the site ASAP that show the areas covered by each parking scammer.

    Do not correct the information on the PCNs. Don't do their job for them and don't help them in case the mistakes work in your favour. By doing so you may inadvertently give away the driver's identity.

    You will need to appeal the postal NTK as soon as you have established "jurisdiction" over the parking area. If it is indeed monitored by Horizon, then you add that as a one liner to the BPA template in blue from the NEWBIES thread.

    The PCN left on the bike should be appealed around day 26 using the same BPA template, and the same one liner if appropriate.

    If the place where the rider parked the bike is covered by Horizon, you should also complain to the BPA and DVLA.

    What happened when you complained to the landowner?
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 28-04-2017 at 10:08 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 28th Apr 17, 10:10 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    • #3
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:10 AM
    • #3
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:10 AM
    Hi Fruitcake

    Those are only dummy numbers to allow people to follow accordingly and make it easier when responding. Makes it easier when looking at the pictures and the thread to follow which I am talking about.

    Cheers though.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 28th Apr 17, 10:14 AM
    • 39,595 Posts
    • 79,193 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:14 AM
    • #4
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:14 AM
    Hi Fruitcake

    Those are only dummy numbers to allow people to follow accordingly and make it easier when responding. Makes it easier when looking at the pictures and the thread to follow which I am talking about.

    Cheers though.
    Originally posted by ParkingFun
    The debt collector letter can be ignored. You should still determine which company operates where the bike was parked and complain to the BPA and DVLA if it's Horizon not One Parking.

    Even if it was Horizon, the signage is carp and the keeper would easily win at PoPLA.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 28-04-2017 at 10:41 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 28th Apr 17, 10:15 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    • #5
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:15 AM
    • #5
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:15 AM
    Redact the PCN numbers from your post NOW!

    You can upload images to a web hosting site such as tunypic or photobucket (but don't register the account in your real name) then post the URLs here but change http to hxxp. Someone here will then change it back to a live link.

    Get photos of the site ASAP that show the areas covered by each parking scammer.

    Do not correct the information on the PCNs. Don't do their job for them and don't help them in case the mistakes work in your favour. By doing so you may inadvertently give away the driver's identity.

    You will need to appeal the postal NTK as soon as you have established "jurisdiction" over the parking area. If it is indeed monitored by Horizon, then you add that as a one liner to the BPA template in blue from the NEWBIES thread.

    The PCN left on the bike should be appealed around day 26 using the same BPA template, and the same one liner if appropriate.

    If the place where the rider parked the bike is covered by Horizon, you should also complain to the BPA and DVLA.

    What happened when you complained to the landowner?
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Am I not well outside of the appeal period as these were issued in January?

    I contacted the local council and as yet have been unable to ascertain who the landowner is. Can you advise the best way to find this out?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 28th Apr 17, 10:21 AM
    • 39,595 Posts
    • 79,193 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:21 AM
    • #6
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:21 AM
    By the way, it is not a fine.

    Is that your real name on the image website, FAO XXX XXXXXXXX? If so, you need to upload the images in a dummy name as I mentioned in my first reply to you. Delete the web address from your post until you have fixed your schoolboy error.
    You can also be identified by the date and time on the ZZPS letter.

    Please give the dates of the two alleged events, or was this the same event and the PCN left on the bike was ignored for some reason?
    We need the date of the alleged event and if there was a notice to driver left on the bike, and the date the corresponding NTK was received by the keeper.
    It makes it easier if all the dates are here in your post rather than having to try to piece it all together on another website.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 28-04-2017 at 10:29 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 28th Apr 17, 10:23 AM
    • 39,595 Posts
    • 79,193 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #7
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:23 AM
    • #7
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:23 AM
    Am I not well outside of the appeal period as these were issued in January?

    I contacted the local council and as yet have been unable to ascertain who the landowner is. Can you advise the best way to find this out?
    Originally posted by ParkingFun
    Until you can give the dates as requested above I can't answer the first question.

    The land registry is the definitive way of finding out who owns the land. There is a small charge for this. Does your employer know who it is, and who contracted the scammers.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 28th Apr 17, 10:27 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    • #8
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:27 AM
    • #8
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:27 AM
    By the way, it is not a fine.

    Please give the dates of the two alleged events, or was this the same event and the PCN left on the bike was ignored for some reason?
    We need the date of the alleged event and if there was a notice to driver left on the bike, and the date the corresponding NTK was received by the keeper.
    It makes it easier if all the dates are here in your post rather than having to try to piece it all together on another website.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    OPS99
    Alleged offence date 03/01/2017
    Postal PCN - Date of sending 25/01/2017
    NTK - Date of sending 24/02/2017
    NTK - Received 27/02/2017

    OPS19
    Alleged offence date 05/01/2017
    PCN was left on the Motorbike seat
    NTK - Date of sending 16/03/2017
    NTK - Received 20/03/2017
    Last edited by ParkingFun; 28-04-2017 at 10:47 AM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 28th Apr 17, 10:29 AM
    • 39,595 Posts
    • 79,193 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:29 AM
    • #9
    • 28th Apr 17, 10:29 AM
    OPS99
    Alleged offence date 03/01/2017
    Postal PCN - Date of sending 25/01/2017
    NTK - Date of sending 24/02/2017

    OPS19
    Alleged offence date 05/01/2017
    PCN was left on the Motorbike seat
    NTK - Date of sending 16/03/2017
    Originally posted by ParkingFun
    Again, the date you received the NTKs please.

    I added some extra information to post 6. You need to edit your first post accordingly.

    It would also help if the NTD and NTK from the first alleged were in the order you received them not the other way round, and to add text to that effect on the web hosting site.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 28-04-2017 at 10:46 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 28th Apr 17, 11:00 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    Thanks Fruitcake. Did my damndest not to make it painful yet somehow managed it.

    Ok, I think I've corrected everything..... reading through now to double check. Images should all be good and I think I've got the ordering right now.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 28th Apr 17, 11:02 AM
    • 39,595 Posts
    • 79,193 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I'm thoroughly confused by all of this.

    How can the PCN date of sending of a notice to driver left on the bike be the 24th of Jan when the date of the alleged event was the 1st of Jan?
    To be left on the vehicle the date of issue must be the same. Please confirm that the PCN was the note left on the bike.

    The second NTK is too late to invoke keeper liability. It must be received by day 56 starting the day after the alleged event. It wasn't sent until day 67 so must have been received after that.

    Do you have any images of the OPS signs? Are there any OPS signs? If not, then complaints to the BPA and DVLA must be sent
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 28-04-2017 at 11:09 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 28th Apr 17, 11:08 AM
    • 39,595 Posts
    • 79,193 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Thanks Fruitcake. Did my damndest not to make it painful yet somehow managed it.

    Ok, I think I've corrected everything..... reading through now to double check. Images should all be good and I think I've got the ordering right now.
    Originally posted by ParkingFun
    That looks OK now, thanks. This is a busy site and only a few regulars, so the easier you can make things for us the easier it is for us to help you.

    Parking scammers monitor these fora and have been know to produce web posts in court in order to try and persuade a judge that the driver's identity has been revealed. A specific location plus date plus time will identify a keeper's identity against their username to the scammers. All it takes then is for a poster to say, I parked, and they have got the driver's identity.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 28th Apr 17, 11:14 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    I'm thoroughly confused by all of this.

    How can the PCN date of sending of a notice to driver left on the bike be the 24th of Jan when the date of the alleged event was the 1st of Jan?
    To be left on the vehicle the date of issue must be the same. Please confirm that the PCN was the note left on the bike.

    The second NTK is too late to invoke keeper liability. It must be received by day 56 starting the day after the alleged event. It wasn't sent until day 67 so must have been received after that.

    Do you have any images of the OPS signs? Are there any OPS signs? If not, then complaints to the BPA and DVLA must be sent
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    I think you've muddled up somewhere. The first one is as follows, no PCN was left on the bike. It was posted.

    OP99
    Alleged offence date 03/01/2017

    Postal PCN - Date of sending 25/01/2017
    Postal PCN - Received 27/01/2017

    NTK - Date of sending 24/02/2017
    NTK - Received 27/02/2017

    2. Ok so the second one which was sent out of time is invalid. Not invalid but keeper is not liable from what I've read.
    3. The OPS signs are those in the link. The ones with the ruler against them.
    Last edited by ParkingFun; 28-04-2017 at 1:44 PM.
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 28th Apr 17, 2:58 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    Anyway cheers for all your help Fruitcake, I've assembled 2 seperate emails to argue my case. One for each notice because they were issued in different ways.

    I'll update with what I sent and the outcome in the future.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by ParkingFun; 28-04-2017 at 3:09 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 29th Apr 17, 12:11 PM
    • 39,595 Posts
    • 79,193 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I think you've muddled up somewhere. The first one is as follows, no PCN was left on the bike. It was posted.

    2. Ok so the second one which was sent out of time is invalid. Not invalid but keeper is not liable from what I've read.
    3. The OPS signs are those in the link. The ones with the ruler against them.
    Originally posted by ParkingFun
    OK, I'll try again.

    OP99
    Alleged offence date 03/01/2017
    Postal PCN - Date of sending 25/01/2017
    Postal PCN - Received 27/01/2017
    NTK - Date of sending 24/02/2017
    NTK - Received 27/02/2017


    A postal PCN is a NTK. It can only be sent to the keeper as the scammers don't know the name and address of the driver.
    So, postal PCN (NTK) was sent/received too late for keeper liability to apply. If nothing was left on the bike then the NTK has to arrive no later than day 14, day 0 being the date of the alleged event.
    If the scammers say a PCN was left on the bike but it must have been removed/blown away, then that same postal PCN (NTK) is too early as the scammers are not allowed to apply for keeper details from the DVLA until day 28, and the PCN/NTK must arrive by day 56.


    Alleged offence date 05/01/2017
    PCN was left on the Motorbike seat
    NTK - Date of sending 16/03/2017
    NTK - Received 20/03/2017


    For a notice to driver (PCN left on bike) the NTK must arrive between day 28 and 56. So, NTK arrived too late for keeper liability to apply.



    Do you have pics of the signs showing their location relative to where the bike was parked, and where they are in relation to any entrances and the horizon signs? In other words, would it be possible to get in and park without seeing the OPS signs, or only seeing the Horizon signs? Pics following a route where that was possible would be useful.

    I would write to the scammers when you have all the picky info saying, as keeper, that both PCNs are outwith the POFA 2012 and therefore there is no keeper liability. FRO and contact the driver, who I will not be naming, and don't bother me again.

    If you can show that OPS is the wrong company for the location where the bike was parked, then you should also complain to the BPA and DVLA, as well as your MP, Mrs May, and Andrew Jones MP, although they may be a bit distracted by other things at the moment.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 29-04-2017 at 12:15 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 8th May 17, 2:33 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    Yeah, cheers for that.

    I did send them an email the other day. I have since heard back and have been told that they are no longer dealing with it and to contact "right hassle"

    When looking around, the gates you come through to enter the grounds do have a sign displayed on either on the pillars. These again are those signs with very small writing as shown in the photos and are not at all clearly flagged as some kind of warning.

    As there is no keeper liability can I force them to leave me alone?
    Last edited by ParkingFun; 08-05-2017 at 2:38 PM.
    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 16th May 17, 1:07 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    I received a response a few days ago informing me that, "Our client is not relying on POFA to pursue this parking charge notice."

    What other methods are they implying could be used to pursue a PCN?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 7:17 PM
    • 48,025 Posts
    • 61,475 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    They are assuming the keeper was the driver. They try it on and hope you don't realise there is no legal way to assume a keeper was the driver in private parking cases. Many Judges in small claims do not realise, so this subterfuge works well for them.

    Covered by loads of other threads where Henry Greenslade's words from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 are used to refute this 'presumption'.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ParkingFun
    • By ParkingFun 15th Jun 17, 5:32 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    ParkingFun
    Had my first letter from Wright Hassall come through recently. Apparently they previously wrote to me, first I've heard of it.

    Anyway the letter is headed FORMAL LETTER OF CLAIM.

    Can any advise what I do in relation to a response on this one? Do I ignore and wait for a court letter (if they go that far) or do I respond now?

    Thanks for everything so far.

    http://imgur.com/4jr4q34 < the latest letter
    Last edited by ParkingFun; 15-06-2017 at 6:18 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 17, 8:32 PM
    • 48,025 Posts
    • 61,475 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Always best to search the forum about the letter you get, first, rather than ask in isolation here. I searched for the keywords: 'formal letter of claim hassall' and changed the default to ''show posts'' (NOT threads):

    Showing results - 63
    Search took 1.94 seconds.


    The top/most recent one of the 63 very relevant results, was this:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72625085#post72625085

    On this forum, everything has already been discussed umpteen times over, every month!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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