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  • FIRST POST
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 27th Apr 17, 2:25 PM
    • 222Posts
    • 202Thanks
    claxtome
    1 Big Car Park, 2 landowners, Valid parking ticket but Parking Charge Issued
    • #1
    • 27th Apr 17, 2:25 PM
    1 Big Car Park, 2 landowners, Valid parking ticket but Parking Charge Issued 27th Apr 17 at 2:25 PM
    Backgound
    1 big car park 2 landowners - local council and private (ESxxx) which is AOS member and should follow IPC guidelines)
    2 entrances from highway to ES part and 1 entrance from highway to Council part.
    Bought valid parking ticket in council part; drove to private part and parked.
    Didn't realise the car park covered 2 areas of land ownership.
    No signage at change of land ownership against IPC CoP guidelines
    No boundary fence on the day
    Came back later in day with 'Notice to Driver' parking charge with words "council tickets not valid in this part of car park"
    Have produced a DVD showing how it is possible to drive round the car park without going back onto a highway

    NTK came back 39 days later. I ignored and didn't appeal

    Further letters and sent my response appeal
    Received reply stating too late to appeal and continuing with chasing letters.

    Received LBC from Gladstones which I replied

    Received MCOL court claim letter from Northampton early April


    Defence, WS and Skeleton have now been submitted and court date is very soon

    My defence, WS, evidence etc. are in this folder->
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r1mszyesx5cxpoa/AACVSwFWvw_nXMN0soZAO964a?dl=0

    Claimant's WS and evidence are in this fo!der->
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/im119eaq9etiyo8/AADm3lCyIuUpeg7itMoGtrq_a?dl=0

    Thanks for reading.
    Last edited by claxtome; 11-10-2017 at 2:11 PM.
Page 11
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 12th Oct 17, 2:48 PM
    • 222 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    claxtome
    Thanks so much for your advice LoC and all. I have calmed down. My phone battery is going so will be offline for a bit. Will check back at 3:15.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 12th Oct 17, 3:23 PM
    • 515 Posts
    • 924 Thanks
    Johnersh
    The distinction between your lateness and their lateness is that info produced on the day is trial by ambush, which the CPR provisions were introduced exactly to prevent...
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 12th Oct 17, 3:55 PM
    • 222 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    claxtome
    Ok a summary as on phone and is charging. New evidence not admissible. C's witness statement is no evidence as of signage. So case dismissed. Unreasonable behaviour not accepted even though a few mistakes made. So costs was for day costs + maximum loss of earnings. Total just over £100. Over the moon. Now to celebrate. Will put more details on later. Unfortunately don't know judge name but will find out. I am Mr C (first letter of surname). Btw had great praise for my prep and defence from judge. Thank you all for your help. :-)
    Last edited by claxtome; 13-10-2017 at 3:46 AM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Oct 17, 3:57 PM
    • 16,072 Posts
    • 20,104 Thanks
    Redx
    brilliant , really well done , I am sure plenty of people on here will add their thanks to your posts and congratulate you

    made my day anyway, never mind yours !!

    best wishes
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 12th Oct 17, 4:06 PM
    • 561 Posts
    • 991 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Ok a summary as on phone and is charging. New evidence not admissible. C's witness statement is no evidence as of signage. So case dismissed. Unreasonable behaviour not accepted even though a few mistakes made. So costs was for day costs + maximum loss of earnings. Total just over £100. Over the moon. Now to celebrate. Will put more details on later. Unfortunately don't know judge name but will find out. I am Mr M. Btw had great praise for my prep and defence from judge. Thank you all for your help. :-)
    Congratulations and very well done. Go relax and enjoy yourself now. Really pleased for you.

    I look forward to the full write up of how this PPC lost the same claim in the same car park with the same particulars two times in a row ... I mean who would have thought that would happen?
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 12th Oct 17, 4:18 PM
    • 2,112 Posts
    • 6,017 Thanks
    bargepole
    Unfortunately don't know judge name but will find out..
    Originally posted by claxtome
    It was District Judge Langley, in Court 1 at St Helens.

    Case no. D0GF98H6 - ES Parking Enforcement Limited -v- Mr C
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 28. Lost 9.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 12th Oct 17, 4:20 PM
    • 515 Posts
    • 924 Thanks
    Johnersh
    I look forward to the full write up of how this PPC lost the same claim in the same car park with the same particulars two times in a row ... I mean who would have thought that would happen?


    It's a lot of work, but congratulations to claxtome on the defence and on costing them money. Time to unwind.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 12th Oct 17, 4:23 PM
    • 1,260 Posts
    • 2,141 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Brilliant news! You must be relieved it’s over!
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 12th Oct 17, 4:41 PM
    • 222 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    claxtome
    I am relieved LoC and a lot of thanks has to go to you for your extra help you provided but there are so many others. Btw Bargepole it was not Judge Langley as it was in court 3 second up. Will find out by phoning court tomorrow. Going to celebrate and will post a big reply when home and not on my phone. My only slight regret was I didn't fully prepare to argue the 'unreasonable behaviour' more to claim extra costs. Would have been difficult to prove. This is a great forum and you all should be proud on here. I appreciate what the regulars do on here to help those who need help. Don't stop helping people. I am so grateful I found this forum :-)
    Last edited by claxtome; 12-10-2017 at 4:52 PM.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 12th Oct 17, 6:19 PM
    • 1,260 Posts
    • 2,141 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Can’t wait to read the full report. Can parking prankster blog this?
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 12th Oct 17, 6:29 PM
    • 2,112 Posts
    • 6,017 Thanks
    bargepole
    ... Btw Bargepole it was not Judge Langley as it was in court 3 second up.
    Originally posted by claxtome
    In that case, it must have been District Judge Deane, who was in court 3 and also covering some of DJ Langley's list.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 28. Lost 9.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 12th Oct 17, 6:32 PM
    • 2,112 Posts
    • 6,017 Thanks
    bargepole
    Can’t wait to read the full report. Can parking prankster blog this?
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    PP is taking a bit of a sabbatical, I believe. No new blogs have appeared since 9 September.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 28. Lost 9.
    • Kezza15
    • By Kezza15 12th Oct 17, 6:32 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 41 Thanks
    Kezza15
    Fantastic news! Knew you’d do it! Well done and enjoy your celebration!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Oct 17, 6:37 PM
    • 14,932 Posts
    • 23,439 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Very well done claxtome, great win.

    If you wanted to turn another notch of the thumbscrew on ESPEL, why not write to the DVLA (David Dunford) and ask whether, in view of the fact that judges are turning down ESPEL claims at this site, the DVLA should now consider whether they should continue providing keeper details to ESPEL for this site? Ask for his views and feedback.

    And while you’re at it, why not ask the IPC what they are going to do to rein in ESPEL at this site.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 12th Oct 17, 10:45 PM
    • 222 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    claxtome
    In that case, it must have been District Judge Deane, who was in court 3 and also covering some of DJ Langley's list.
    That name rings a bell. It was a lady judge. Will check to confirm tomorrow.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 12th Oct 17, 10:51 PM
    • 222 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    claxtome
    Can parking prankster blog this?
    I think that should be ok. What do I need to do?
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 13th Oct 17, 12:27 AM
    • 222 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    claxtome
    Ok my report of the day and have time to reflect on what happened.->

    Prior to Court
    I arrived half an hour before due time. I knew I needed to check with the usher about my new court bundle and whether they had it so was expecting to see someone waiting to greet me. No one did and saw an office but it was closed. When the office opened I introduced myself and the usher wandered off with my 'extra' copied bundle so if they judge didn't have my new bundle then they could have my new copy. She came back saying they had.

    As I sat down I was approached by another person who asked are you the defendant in my case? (Obviously overheard what I had said). She said she was an independent solicitor and the witness was not turning up. She then explained that the document she was handing me was what the witness had provided. I noticed it was a lot of my evidence with many comments/markings and crossings out. She said it was my copy to keep. She was going to submit the topic of signage as a prelim.

    The new document completely threw me. Made me start questioning my own evidence. After a few minutes of stewing over it. I decided to get some water and find a quieter area away from this person. That was when I posted things on the forum. Not easy when my phone kept insisting on me signing in again. The people on the forum where great with their advice and was so grateful for a lifeline when I felt uneasy and under pressure on the day.

    I took the forums advice and went immediately back to the solicitor and told her I refuse this evidence it is too late. My passion I am sure was clear as she said nothing. On further advice from the forum I went back to her to ask again why the witness was not turning up. The quote she said will stay in my memory "not cost effective". Later I thought I must remember to say that to the judge. The forum suggested this as well.

    Anyway I went back to my quiet seat and started to calm down a bit. It seemed strange as someone went into the court where I was sitting then 5 minutes later came out. Think the usher had made a mistake as they didn't look happy and the usher kept coming back to them. Made me concerned is this going to happen to me.

    That same court room 5 mins later I was told I would appear there but I was not first up. Had thoughts of a long wait but very quickly, it seemed they came out and knew it wouldn't be long before it was me up.

    Court session

    I sat down in the front row and before I knew it their solicitor was talking about 'signage' and asking about it as a prelim. I had prepared for my prelim things 'why no witness' and defending a late submission of my evidence so was surprised and wanted to have my say. (recap she had said to me in the waiting area she would bring it up). The judge very quickly said this new evidence is not witnessed correctly and is late - was just 5 pages of my evidence with comments/notes.

    She then checked the original Claimant WS against signage which the judge assessed as very little and 1 picture did not resemble clear signage. I also seem to remember the judge asking are these the views of the witness? She replied with I don't know I think so. She also mentioned something about it not a proper witness statement. Hmmm. Sorry my mind wandered a little here as was wondering when can i talk and say things. Those who know my case and seen the redacted evidence it was cr*p.

    So as there was effectively no evidence the judgement is there is no case to answer.

    I felt very numb as within 5 mins I had won the case.

    Costs and unreasonable behaviour
    The next topic she asked about was costs... Hmmm if only I had predicted what would happen on the day I wouldn't have prepared to defend myself and just prepare for proving 'unreasonable behaviour' costs.

    I had utilised what LoC had sent me and filled it out but I am no solicitor so just had to read it and refer to the references. Hmmm anyway after 10mins where I felt I waffled. I had gone through it and the judge asked if there was any further things I wanted to say. She then made a judgement on 'unreasonable behaviour'.

    She said she understood there had been some shortcomings but whether the behaviour was unreasonable she didn't think I had proved it. She said you knew it was a parking violation and had information about that even though the particulars and other things weren't the best. They had done what they had been asked to do.

    I was then left with claiming the costs I could claim - usual hearing costs. She was happy to award full £95 loss of earnings after a bit of questions about net income etc per month as I knew my gross and had calculated my hourly rate but my net included reductions for a lot of things like pensions, childcare etc. Anyway she calculated travelling (petrol) and parking for the day and came up with around £105.

    I think the judge was open to the idea to award as many 'hearing costs' as she could. For instance she mentioned does that mileage include the return leg. I am too honest for my own good and said yes.

    I got high praise from the judge as I was leaving as she said it was the best defendant bundle she had seen. When I was talking to the solicitor I gleamed she is not from Gladstones but was an independent solicitor. She has been called in at the last minute to help out - a hand for hire. She gave high praise at how prepared I was and had you considered a career change. She seemed to want to know where I had got help from I said a solicitor friend. I was glad later I hadn't mentioned this forum as have other parking fines to fight.

    My thoughts/summary
    I think ESPEL saw how good my costs argument that they would have received yesterday and got worried they may end up with a huge bill so hired the solicitor at the last minute to come and make sure the costs outcome was not 'unreasonable behaviour'. I want to stick to that view as I get comfort in the fact they got worried from a letter and didn't want to pay it (hmm sound familiar to a parking charge). The solicitor wouldn't have been cheap I am sure. All This means is ESPEL are well out of pocket. What a shame.
    Last edited by claxtome; 13-10-2017 at 4:57 AM.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 13th Oct 17, 12:27 AM
    • 1,030 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Very well done. You put a lot of work into this and it paid off. A testament to meticulous and thorough preparation -Newbies take note!

    Can't wait for the court report.

    **EDIT: Reading it now
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 13th Oct 17, 12:33 AM
    • 222 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    claxtome
    Thank you Lamilad you helped me a lot recently by questioning what I was doing and whether it was right for me to do it. It made me double check and ask more questions.
    Last edited by claxtome; 13-10-2017 at 4:16 AM.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 13th Oct 17, 4:22 AM
    • 222 Posts
    • 202 Thanks
    claxtome
    In that case, it must have been District Judge Deane, who was in court 3 and also covering some of DJ Langley's list.
    A few Judges names were mentioned on the day so wasn't sure. However a good search on our friend Google and Bargepole I am 99% sure it is her. The photo I found was a few years ago.
    For those who don't know if you go on a certain website you can see all the county court listings for the day in each county court in England. Bargepole would know this and could look up my court room number on that site and see who was presiding in it.
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