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  • FIRST POST
    • PESSimist
    • By PESSimist 22nd Apr 17, 4:08 PM
    • 3Posts
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    PESSimist
    How does the right to Drop Off/Pick Up compare with a grace period?
    • #1
    • 22nd Apr 17, 4:08 PM
    How does the right to Drop Off/Pick Up compare with a grace period? 22nd Apr 17 at 4:08 PM
    I hired a car the other day and got a PCN from PESS during the 5 minutes it took me to get up to my flat, collect my partner and bags and walk back down. (From the time of printing the hire documents to me getting the PCN is only 21 minutes, and that includes the time to check the vehicle and drive the mile to the flat! )

    Naturally, I am furious!

    The car was parked in front of the Concierge's office which is on the site at the flat complex. On getting the ticket and complaining to the Concierge, he apologetically pointed to the parking notice I hadn't seen. This notice said that the area could only be used for picking up and dropping off. OK so far - I'm picking up, right? Then in the detail it further says that the driver cannot leave the vehicle.

    1) I understand that there should be a reasonable grace period as per the BPA rules - is this impacted on by the drop off/pick up restrictions?

    2) Is it reasonable to prohibit the driver from leaving the vehicle when the passenger needs help with bags (and needs to be collected in the first place!)?

    Because the vehicle is a hire car, I have followed the NEWBIE thread instructions and a) appealed to PESS with attached pictures of the hire document (it shows time) and b) told the hire company not to get involved.

    Thereafter, I'm a little unsure how to defend when it ends up in court. The PCN reason for issue is: "10-parking on Private Land without a Valid Permit and/or Authorisation"

    3) As a tenant, is there a contract to breach since I got out of the car where the sign says I can't (there are no site permits in use for parking)? Can there be an act of trespass as I am authorised to be on site as a tenant?

    4) Within this complex is an underground car park which I have since discovered has a 20 minute free grace period. The charge for 24 hours is £34. Would this be a reasonable limit to the site owner's damages, since the owner is prepared to accept this as a charge for parking?

    If I've parked illegally I don't object to getting a ticket, but getting a bill for £60/£100 for 5 minutes when picking someone up from my own flat is outrageous!
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Apr 17, 4:41 PM
    • 15,425 Posts
    • 24,122 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 22nd Apr 17, 4:41 PM
    • #2
    • 22nd Apr 17, 4:41 PM
    Thereafter, I'm a little unsure how to defend when it ends up in court
    Why are you worrying about court? Why does virtually every thread that appears here have a worry about court when there's less than a 1% chance of it happening (mini-rant over!) - and this case around a 0% chance?

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Parking_Enforcement_and_Security_Services.html

    Kill this off at POPLA then there's no court possible!

    1) I understand that there should be a reasonable grace period as per the BPA rules - is this impacted on by the drop off/pick up restrictions?
    There's little or no regulation of this - the PPC will argue their case, you argue yours.

    2) Is it reasonable to prohibit the driver from leaving the vehicle when the passenger needs help with bags (and needs to be collected in the first place!)?
    Probably not, but my answer above applies similarly. The Jopson v Homeguard case provides some legal clarity of a persuasive nature. Check it out here (last link at the bottom):

    http://www.parking-prankster.com/case-law.html

    3) As a tenant, is there a contract to breach since I got out of the car where the sign says I can't (there are no site permits in use for parking)? Can there be an act of trespass as I am authorised to be on site as a tenant?
    If you're a tenant, check out what your tenancy agreement says about this - probably nothing, so no tinpot PPC can come along, slap up some sloppy signage and override your legal agreement relating to the property.

    Other legal cases showing 'tenancy trumps signage' in the above link.

    4) Within this complex is an underground car park which I have since discovered has a 20 minute free grace period. The charge for 24 hours is £34. Would this be a reasonable limit to the site owner's damages, since the owner is prepared to accept this as a charge for parking?
    Forget even thinking about this. The owner is entirely out of this particular loop, it's the PPC trying to extract from your wallet, not the owner, and they won't cancel on the basis of you paying anything to the owner.

    I've tried to answer your Qs above, but most are not that directly relevant. See this off at POPLA, using information which is now available to you in post #3 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky.

    HTH
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    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Apr 17, 7:21 PM
    • 51,440 Posts
    • 65,043 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 22nd Apr 17, 7:21 PM
    • #3
    • 22nd Apr 17, 7:21 PM
    Because the vehicle is a hire car, I have followed the NEWBIE thread instructions and a) appealed to PESS with attached pictures of the hire document (it shows time) and b) told the hire company not to get involved.

    Thereafter, I'm a little unsure how to defend when it ends up in court. The PCN reason for issue is: "10-parking on Private Land without a Valid Permit and/or Authorisation"
    All good so far, and these are not court savvy but if they try, it's defendable, as Umkomaas has said.

    Are PESS still BPA members? There was some discussion on this thread at one point about them not being in either the BPA or the IPC but in the end they were considered to be BPA:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109115

    If it's BPA this is winnable at POPLA. I hope you only called yourself the hirer (not outing who parked)?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • PESSimist
    • By PESSimist 22nd Apr 17, 8:56 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    PESSimist
    • #4
    • 22nd Apr 17, 8:56 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd Apr 17, 8:56 PM


    Erm... And if you have declared yourself the driver?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Apr 17, 9:08 PM
    • 51,440 Posts
    • 65,043 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 22nd Apr 17, 9:08 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd Apr 17, 9:08 PM
    Same as all the hundreds of other threads where people said they were driving. Loads of them. Happens too often!

    Still winnable at POPLA (are they BPA, what does the PCN say about appeals stages?) but saying who was driving was a mistake because - if you had appealed as 'hirer' - you could have won this easily at POPLA on the point that para 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 wasn't complied with (job done, scam over). Now you can't use the POFA at all.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • PESSimist
    • By PESSimist 12th Jun 17, 4:13 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    PESSimist
    • #6
    • 12th Jun 17, 4:13 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Jun 17, 4:13 PM
    Hi All,

    I thought I would share the response from PESS to my appeal email and photos...

    "Thank you for your email regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

    After carefully considering the case, I have cancelled the above parking charge on this occasion only.

    I must stress, however, that the terms and conditions of parking at this site are clear and must be abided by at all times. Therefore, I will not be able to withdraw any further PCNs issued to the vehicle.

    Kind Regards"

    I have replied suggesting that ambushing tenants is in no-one's interest and possibly discriminatory, as those less abled will need assistance which will necessitate leaving the vehicle. I have also emailed the site managers with similar. No response as yet.

    Thank you for all your help!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jun 17, 7:00 PM
    • 51,440 Posts
    • 65,043 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 12th Jun 17, 7:00 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Jun 17, 7:00 PM
    Well done, and thankyou for confirming it was cancelled!

    Newbies like to read updates and this is a success, and you are not taking it lying down either - all good.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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