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  • FIRST POST
    • fviajero
    • By fviajero 21st Apr 17, 4:23 PM
    • 18Posts
    • 13Thanks
    fviajero
    Not sure reason for PCN from Smart Parking
    • #1
    • 21st Apr 17, 4:23 PM
    Not sure reason for PCN from Smart Parking 21st Apr 17 at 4:23 PM
    Hi,

    I have received a PCN from Smart Parking - Fistral Beach, but I am not sure the reason, as the driver paid for it. Before asking Smart Parking, I would appreciate your opinion.

    a- to have taken few seconds more than 10 minutes from entering the land upto pay for parking

    b- to have extended the stay 2 minutes late

    c- to have extended the time at all (to pay for 2 hours first and then extend one hour is cheaper than to pay straightaway for 3 hours)

    d- none of above: the PCN is a mistake, the system failed to consider the 2 payments.

    I guess the crime is (a), so then I will have to decide whether to describe this and justify the 10 minutes delay (seems tempting, because the driver didnīt abuse at all, there was limited free parking space and busy traffic), or go to a standard appeal letter ignoring this specific situation I just described.

    I take this opportunity to thanks again this forum, because 3 years ago helped me to get rid of another PCN in this same parking lot.

    Regards,

    fviajero
    Last edited by fviajero; 22-04-2017 at 5:53 PM. Reason: to anonymize the post
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 21st Apr 17, 4:56 PM
    • 39,206 Posts
    • 78,334 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 21st Apr 17, 4:56 PM
    • #2
    • 21st Apr 17, 4:56 PM
    You can be identified from the specific times and date you have mentioned. You should edit your post before you do anything else.

    Please start by reading the Sticky thread for NEWBIES then send the BPA template in blue. Copy and paste and send. The reason why you got a ticket is greed. The scammers just want your money. Nothing else matters and trying to understand the why will get you nowhere. Just appeal, make a second stage appeal to PoPLA and win.

    Luckily Not so Smart have never done court, although they have six years if they decided they want to in the future. At the moment they aren't clever enough to do that though.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 12-06-2017 at 8:31 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • fviajero
    • By fviajero 22nd Apr 17, 6:59 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    fviajero
    • #3
    • 22nd Apr 17, 6:59 PM
    • #3
    • 22nd Apr 17, 6:59 PM
    Thanks, Fruitcake.

    I have decided to request Private Parking Appeals to handle it for me this time; I know it is not that difficult to do it oneself, but it is time consuming.

    Cheers
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Apr 17, 7:27 PM
    • 46,883 Posts
    • 60,213 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 22nd Apr 17, 7:27 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd Apr 17, 7:27 PM
    It would be cancelled in one appeal...one of the easiest.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ivor Pecheque
    • By Ivor Pecheque 22nd Apr 17, 7:59 PM
    • 710 Posts
    • 1,308 Thanks
    Ivor Pecheque
    • #5
    • 22nd Apr 17, 7:59 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd Apr 17, 7:59 PM
    Exiting can be a nightmare. Take a look at the blue car at 2:05, going round the roundabout the wrong way-anything to avoid a charge !

    I've done another "entering fistral" video somewhere https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kqA9V81iu0
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    • Ivor Pecheque
    • By Ivor Pecheque 22nd Apr 17, 8:01 PM
    • 710 Posts
    • 1,308 Thanks
    Ivor Pecheque
    • #6
    • 22nd Apr 17, 8:01 PM
    • #6
    • 22nd Apr 17, 8:01 PM
    entering Fistral, relatively quiet time... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swJ_elscsJM&t=57s
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    • fviajero
    • By fviajero 3rd May 17, 8:30 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    fviajero
    • #7
    • 3rd May 17, 8:30 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd May 17, 8:30 PM
    Hi, it seems that Private Parking Appeals are a ghost company, thanks god I didnīt pay then in advance.

    So I have to appeal myself, eventually with your help.

    After reading the NEWBIES I have two questions: considering that the driver paid the parking for several hours (the ticket is for have taken 11 minutes to issue it, I think), does it make sense to send the BPA letter as it is, so also including this paragraph?

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    Isnīt it worth to mention that Newquay parking in busy hours can take you easily more than 10 minutes to be ready to pay for, and that the driver only exceeded in one minute?

    Thanks.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd May 17, 8:36 PM
    • 14,407 Posts
    • 17,983 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 3rd May 17, 8:36 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd May 17, 8:36 PM
    just use the blue text template "as is"

    and add a line that states that

    The BPA CoP clause #13 adds 2 time periods as grace periods onto any parking time , which is OVER 10 minutes to depart AND a period to park up , read the signs , pay for a ticket and place it on the car (this is commonly no more than 10 minutes) - therefore there was no "overstay" as the 2 grace periods allow for the alleged 11 minutes quite easily and could conceivably be as much as 21 minutes grace

    so by adding the above you are acknowledging that you know about BOTH grace periods, but in your last reply you only took accound of the departure one , and completely ignored the arrival one

    plus OVER 10 minutes actually means 11 minutes or more

    Last edited by Redx; 03-05-2017 at 8:39 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • fviajero
    • By fviajero 4th May 17, 6:00 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    fviajero
    • #9
    • 4th May 17, 6:00 PM
    • #9
    • 4th May 17, 6:00 PM
    Thanks, Redx.

    So following your advise I will send the template appeal for BPA members to Smart Parking, adding the paragraph you mentioned but with a change, because yours seems to me that justify a longer time to exit, when in this case the challenge is the time needed from entering until paying for a ticket (it is not in my favour the sentence "AND a period to park up , read the signs , pay for a ticket and place it on the car (this is commonly no more than 10 minutes)", and in fact as illustrated by Ivor Pecheque, in Fistral beach parking site these 10 minutes are clearly not enough).

    The BPA CoP clause #13 adds 2 time periods as grace periods onto any parking time, which is OVER 10 minutes to depart AND a period to park up, read the signs, pay for a ticket and place it on the car - therefore it is not correct your alleged statement that "by remaining at the car park for longer than permitted [...] the Parking Charge is now payable [...]"

    1- I would appreciate a confirmation that this is the right approach.

    2- does it make sense to attach the video recording provided by Ivor that shows that easily the time from entering up to pay for the ticket can easily reach almost 10 minutes with low traffic, so more with dense traffic?

    3- Does it help to attach to the appeal the parking receipts that are currently in my possession?

    One comment: I have phoned the restaurant where the driver had lunch the day of the event, which is only accessible through this private parking site, and they said that they donīt have any relation to Smart Parking in order to request the PCN to be dropped for me, but that the whole commercial community at the site are aware and very much concerned about the amount of unhappy customers due to Smart Parking practices, but still they canīt do anything.

    Thanks, regards.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 4th May 17, 6:04 PM
    • 6,578 Posts
    • 5,518 Thanks
    The Deep
    Read this


    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 4th May 17, 6:09 PM
    • 14,407 Posts
    • 17,983 Thanks
    Redx
    my point is that the BPA CoP allows for TWO grace periods, so how the extra time onsite is divided can be 3 + 10 , 8 + 5 , 5 + 8 , doesnt really matter , the fact is that you are allowed both grace periods by that CoP and not so smart only monitor time on site , not actual parking time

    so any appeal I would make would include that information so that not so smart are made aware of these 2 CoP facts in writing in this initial appeal

    I doubt that the driver managed to enter, find a space , park up , read the signs , buy a ticket and place it on the car in 3 minutes ( 3+10) , so 5 + 8 or 6 + 7 minutes seems more in keeping with reality

    the fact that ivor pecheque took much longer demonstrates that even the CoP may not allow enough and a judge may allow more, but for the purposes of popla you are stuck with the CoP wordings , not a judges interpretation , so as your alleged overstay is within those CoP wordings then why gild the lily ?

    I only said that the time to leave is construed at 11 minutes (which was supposed to go into the BPA CoP), the 21 minutes is made up of up to 10 minutes beforehand and 11 minutes after , which is 21 minutes IN TOTAL

    whereas yours could be say 3 + 10

    for the initial appeal it doesnt make any sense at all to attach a video recording nor does it make any sense to do anything other than point out the bl****g obvious which they have missed ot ignored, showing you are a savvy opponent

    it does make sense to attach a copy of the paid for ticket however (keeping the original safe)

    but the CoP wordings may scare them into cancelling the pcn, which is one objective of this initial appeal, alternatively it will secure a popla code, where evidence can be put before the ombudsman service

    the objective of an initial appeal is "put up or shut up" (cancel or issue a popla code)
    Last edited by Redx; 04-05-2017 at 6:17 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • fviajero
    • By fviajero 4th May 17, 6:49 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    fviajero
    Thanks a lot, Redx and The Deep. So I will add to the "blue template" the following:

    The BPA CoP clause #13 adds 2 time periods as grace periods onto any parking time, which is OVER 10 minutes to depart AND a period to park up, read the signs, pay for a ticket and place it on the car - therefore it is not correct your alleged statement that "by remaining at the car park for longer than permitted [...] the Parking Charge is now payable [...]"

    Furthermore, it has been shown in Altrincham County Court (Case 3JD08399, where the driver drove for 31 minutes around the exact same carpark, Fistral Beach) that driving around a carpark does not mean that a car is parked, and as such, an attempt levy a parking charge would not be correct. Please provide evidence that the vehicle in question was parked for the periods claimed.

    Is all good?

    Regards,
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th May 17, 7:34 PM
    • 46,883 Posts
    • 60,213 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Add in the link to the minutes of the Professional Development & Standards Board meeting from 30th July 2015 where it was formally agreed by the Board (of BPA members and stakeholders) that the minimum grace period would be changed in 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice to read 'a minimum of eleven minutes':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5637808

    Add that in too. Remove some of the template stuff about signage from the blue writing version in the NEWBIES thread and/or the stuff about 'if you should obtain my data from the DVLA' if you need to make it short enough to fit in an appeal box online. More important is the grace periods and 'no keeper liability' in a Smart Parking scam few minutes ''overstay'' case like this.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • fviajero
    • By fviajero 12th Jun 17, 8:23 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    fviajero
    We won, thanks!!
    Hi, SmartParking has cancelled my parking ticket after first appeal to them.

    I appealed 5 weeks ago, and I was afraid of having missed their feedback, but now I entered their web page, as if I was going to appeal again (to see how far I could reach), and I found:

    The Parking Charge Notice (PCN) has been cancelled. No appeal is necessary. If you would like to contact the Parking Office regarding this Parking Charge Notice please call the office on 0845 230 3081 and select option 4.

    As there is no POPLA decisions, I wonīt include this information in the threat with that name. Still, someone can find it interesting to see my succesful appeal to SmartParking, so find it below.

    Thanks all, specially Coupon-mad, Redx, The Deep, Fruitcake and Ivor Pecheque.

    Best regards.

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. TC444xxxxx

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    The BPA CoP clause #13 adds two time periods as grace periods onto any parking time, which is OVER 10 minutes to depart AND a period to park up, read the signs, pay for a ticket and place it on the car - therefore it is not correct your alleged statement that "by remaining at the car park for longer than permitted [...] the Parking Charge is now payable [...]".

    It must also be taken into account the minutes of the Professional Development & Standards Board meeting from 30th July 2015, where it was formally agreed by the Board (of BPA members and stakeholders) that the minimum grace period would be changed in 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice to read 'a minimum of eleven minutes' (http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/Meeting%20Notes/Governance/20150730_PDandS_Board_Action_Notes.pdf)

    Furthermore, it has been shown in Altrincham County Court (Case 3JD08399, where the driver drove for 31 minutes around the exact same carpark, Fistral Beach) that driving around a carpark does not mean that a car is parked, and as such, an attempt levy a parking charge would not be correct. Busy traffic within the parking site the day of the alleged "contravention" (sunny day during Easter Holidays) forces drivers to spend longer time to park and pay for a ticket. Please provide evidence that the vehicle in question was parked for the periods claimed.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    The keeper of the car, Mr. X

    Find attach copies of the tickets paid by the driver.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Jun 17, 8:28 AM
    • 13,130 Posts
    • 20,471 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Nice appeal, excellent result - well done. I've bookmarked your appeal to refer others to who have a potential grace period issue.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jun 17, 11:59 AM
    • 14,407 Posts
    • 17,983 Thanks
    Redx
    well done , although not unexpected because as was amply pointed out the GRACE PERIODS of clause #13 tied them up in knots

    clearly they saw your initial appeal and knew what a popla appeal would look like, with more points besides grace periods

    they have cancelled it and are looking for far more easier prey to hook
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Ian011
    • By Ian011 12th Jun 17, 12:43 PM
    • 1,670 Posts
    • 930 Thanks
    Ian011
    The Parking Charge Notice (PCN) has been cancelled. No appeal is necessary. If you would like to contact the Parking Office regarding this Parking Charge Notice please call the office on 0845 230 3081 and select option 4.
    Originally posted by fviajero
    Usage of a premium rate 0845 number for this purpose is a breach of Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 since 13 June 2014.

    Failure to state the call costs immediately adjacent to the premium rate 0845 number is a breach of the Ofcom regulations in place since 1 July 2015.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jun 17, 8:56 PM
    • 46,883 Posts
    • 60,213 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hi, SmartParking has cancelled my parking ticket after first appeal to them.

    I appealed 5 weeks ago, and I was afraid of having missed their feedback, but now I entered their web page, as if I was going to appeal again (to see how far I could reach), and I found:

    The Parking Charge Notice (PCN) has been cancelled. No appeal is necessary. If you would like to contact the Parking Office regarding this Parking Charge Notice please call the office on 0845 230 3081 and select option 4.

    As there is no POPLA decisions, I wonīt include this information in the threat with that name. Still, someone can find it interesting to see my succesful appeal to SmartParking, so find it below.

    Thanks all, specially Coupon-mad, Redx, The Deep, Fruitcake and Ivor Pecheque.

    Best regards.

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. TC444xxxxx

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    The BPA CoP clause #13 adds two time periods as grace periods onto any parking time, which is OVER 10 minutes to depart AND a period to park up, read the signs, pay for a ticket and place it on the car - therefore it is not correct your alleged statement that "by remaining at the car park for longer than permitted [...] the Parking Charge is now payable [...]".

    It must also be taken into account the minutes of the Professional Development & Standards Board meeting from 30th July 2015, where it was formally agreed by the Board (of BPA members and stakeholders) that the minimum grace period would be changed in 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice to read 'a minimum of eleven minutes' (http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/Meeting%20Notes/Governance/20150730_PDandS_Board_Action_Notes.pdf)

    Furthermore, it has been shown in Altrincham County Court (Case 3JD08399, where the driver drove for 31 minutes around the exact same carpark, Fistral Beach) that driving around a carpark does not mean that a car is parked, and as such, an attempt levy a parking charge would not be correct. Busy traffic within the parking site the day of the alleged "contravention" (sunny day during Easter Holidays) forces drivers to spend longer time to park and pay for a ticket. Please provide evidence that the vehicle in question was parked for the periods claimed.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    The keeper of the car, Mr. X

    Find attach copies of the tickets paid by the driver.
    Originally posted by fviajero

    Well done - a great first appeal based on grace periods at Fistral beach car park.

    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bebrave
    • By bebrave 19th Jun 17, 2:34 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    bebrave
    Can't figure out reason
    Hi All,
    I have got a fixed penalty charge from Smart Parking. They have shown me 2 pictures as proof of me entering the car park and exiting within a time span of about 1hr 45mins. I am not disputing the time. The maximum allowed is 2 hrs. I have appealed this as I can't figure out why I have got it and what other proof they have. It is one of them machines where you enter your reg details. Surely they should have sent a printout of their machine showing that I hadn't paid or a picture of the ticket on my windscreen showing that I had exceeded the time. I can't imagine that I would deliberately park without getting myself a ticket. Proof of me entering and exiting the car park is no proof that I didn't pay the fees as I stayed a max of 1hr 45 mins.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 19th Jun 17, 2:56 PM
    • 31,505 Posts
    • 15,508 Thanks
    Quentin
    You must start your own thread to get advice. But first read up in the newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum before starting a new thread as you are politely asked to do
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