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  • FIRST POST
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 20th Apr 17, 11:09 AM
    • 18Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Lertoc
    ParkingEye forwarded PCN
    • #1
    • 20th Apr 17, 11:09 AM
    ParkingEye forwarded PCN 20th Apr 17 at 11:09 AM
    Hello!

    Thanks for this wonderful resource and to the people that contribute.

    It seems that in February I received a PCN to my old address that my car was registered to at the time, but I have since changed. They have forwarded me the PCN (I would assume by looking up my drivers license address).

    2 trips to the car park (at a hospital) were made, and it was full on both occasions, so it was not parked in. They have listed the first arrival and the last exit. There is obviously no proof of this though (no receipts etc.) I am an idiot with a terrible memory, parking occurred but not enough was paid.

    Because the PCN is dated February, and I did not receive the letter until a few days ago, this obviously falls outside the 28 days to appeal. But on the supplementary letter that informs me that they sent the PCN to my old address it has the same blurb on the back "All appeals must be received within 28 days of this correspondence".

    Can I still appeal? Should I appeal? When should I appeal? Will I get a POPLA code?

    Also, in the PCN there is an ANPR photograph of my vehicle. I am unsure whether the original image is sufficient to recognise the driver? If I do appeal the case do I bring this up? or just correspond as the keeper?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated
    Last edited by Lertoc; 20-04-2017 at 11:54 AM.
Page 1
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 20th Apr 17, 11:34 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    • #2
    • 20th Apr 17, 11:34 AM
    • #2
    • 20th Apr 17, 11:34 AM
    This was the letter I was planning to send to them

    Dear Sirs

    Re: Ref Number: xxxxxx/xxxxxx

    This letter is a formal challenge to the issue of your Outstanding Parking Charge dated xx/04/2017 (in reference to your Parking Charge Notice dated xx/02/2017)

    The car park in question was visited on 2 separate occasions that day, the driver was unable to park on both occasions as there were no available spaces and so left without parking. The times and images shown on the PCN indicate the first arrival and the last departure.
    Is it worth including this bit?
    The signage at the car park indicates that the installed system was recently put in place, problems such as these are to be expected with any new system.

    If it is still your case that that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages; please give me a full breakdown of the actual losses which evidences that this parking charge is a true reflection of the damages caused solely by entering a full car park and leaving shortly thereafter.
    and the rest of the letter is as follows:

    I challenge the 'PCN' as keeper of the car. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Please provide me with formal contact details for the owner of the car park. As a patient of the hospital, I wish to provide them with a copy of this letter.

    Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    What do you think?
    Last edited by Lertoc; 20-04-2017 at 11:45 AM.
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 20th Apr 17, 11:52 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    • #3
    • 20th Apr 17, 11:52 AM
    • #3
    • 20th Apr 17, 11:52 AM
    Oh balls, I just looked up on their website, it looks like I got the dates mixed up and this was the one time I did actually park. It says that an amount paid, but not enough, I paid for 1 hour and was there for a little under 2.

    Argh. Where do I go from here?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 20th Apr 17, 11:59 AM
    • 39,748 Posts
    • 79,553 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 20th Apr 17, 11:59 AM
    • #4
    • 20th Apr 17, 11:59 AM
    You appeal using the BPA template in blue from the NEWBIES thread. Copy and paste and send.
    Next, get pics of the car park entrance and signage.
    Then, start researching PoPLA appeals as per the template points in post 3 of the NEWBIES.

    Also, compare your PCN aginst the one in the NEWBIES to see if it mentions "after 29 days ..." or whether there is a blank space as if something has been omitted. An example is linked from post 3 of the NEWBIES.

    You also need to edit your posts to remove any information about who parked, and for how long. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper as the scammers read these fora.

    Parking Lie won't have looked up your driver's licence address. Either it was given to them by the new residents, or a tracing agency was used after the new residents returned it to the scammers.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 20-04-2017 at 12:06 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 20th Apr 17, 12:12 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    • #5
    • 20th Apr 17, 12:12 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Apr 17, 12:12 PM
    Thanks for the info. Do I still leave in the stuff about signage from the template? There are a lot of signs (including a massive banner stating that there was a new system in place), and they seem to be pretty proud of them

    licence
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Thanks, I always get that one wrong!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 20th Apr 17, 12:25 PM
    • 39,748 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 20th Apr 17, 12:25 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Apr 17, 12:25 PM
    Thanks for the info. Do I still leave in the stuff about signage from the template? There are a lot of signs (including a massive banner stating that there was a new system in place), and they seem to be pretty proud of them

    Thanks, I always get that one wrong!
    Originally posted by Lertoc
    You save the ammo for PoPLA. It is very unusual for parking scammers to cancel after the intitial appeal. It is also unusual for Parking Lie to forward a PCN to a different address. It is not normally in their interest to do so. It would be interesing to know why they did this, and how they knew about the keeper's new address.

    New systems have to be allowed to "bed in." The scammers should allow some leeway for a rasonale period according to the BPA CoP, long enough for people to realise there is a new system. A month or a couple of visits would be resonable, but I don't hink it is specifically defined. It shoud however be mentioned in your PoPLA appeal along with all the other points you will use.

    You gaven't answered the question about the type of PCN. Does it mention "after 29 days ..." or does there appear to be a blank space.

    Please also give the date you received the PCN/NTK at your new address.

    Spelling and grammar are important if it ever gets to court, that's why it is best to get terminology right now.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 20-04-2017 at 12:33 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 20th Apr 17, 2:00 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    • #7
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:00 PM
    • #7
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:00 PM
    It is also unusual for Parking Lie to forward a PCN to a different address. It is not normally in their interest to do so. It would be interesing to know why they did this, and how they knew about the keeper's new address.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    I read it more closely, it says they got it from a "Credit Reference Agency" and even though they had to go to all this effort they still will accept the reduced rate of £50... what saints.

    You gaven't answered the question about the type of PCN. Does it mention "after 29 days ..." or does there appear to be a blank space.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    It does, it says "you are warned that if, after the 29 days from the date given[...]and we do not know both the name and current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you"

    Please also give the date you received the PCN/NTK at your new address.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Date on PCN is 18/02/2017, date on Outstanding Parking Charge (the one they sent to my new address) is 12/04/2017, they arrived in my post on 19/04/2017
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 20th Apr 17, 2:39 PM
    • 39,748 Posts
    • 79,553 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:39 PM
    • #8
    • 20th Apr 17, 2:39 PM
    OK, so you send the appeal template before the 28 day appeal deadline. Copy and paste and send. Everything in it is relevant and they have to prove to PoPLA that their signs were adequate, not the other way round. If you say it was inadequate, they have to provide proof that it was.

    That's why you need your own pics to show how a driver could have missed signs. Perhaps entrance signs can only be seen if approaching from one direction but not another. At a parking lie car park near me, the entrance sign has been (deliberately in my opinion) turned so it cannot be seen when approaching from the main road.
    If that was similar to your case, you would take a picture from the direction the driver approached that shows the sign wouldn't have been seen.

    There may be a particular route that the driver took through the car park, possibly by driving between parked cars, where again the driver might not have seen the signs.
    The font size on the alleged signs may be too small to read from a moving car. They may be too high up to read. Information on the signs might not say what the ANPR image data will be used for. It's possible some signs say this but not others, so it is possible that the driver only saw signs that didn't say this and were therfore BPA CoP non compliant. You get my drift.

    It is imperative that the keeper gets pics of signage ASAP. It has been known for parking scammers to remove or change signs after a PCN has been issued. The pics need to be date and time stmped, or a contemprary newspaper front page needs to be included next to the signs as proof of date. PoPLA have rejected images without time and date stamps, even though metadata was available to show when the pics were taken.

    Other appeal points will be available, so start with the simple first stage appeal and then gather all the evidence available to beat the scammers at PoPLA.

    What happened when you complained to the landowner/retailer?
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 20-04-2017 at 2:43 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 20th Apr 17, 4:03 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    • #9
    • 20th Apr 17, 4:03 PM
    • #9
    • 20th Apr 17, 4:03 PM
    What happened when you complained to the landowner/retailer?
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    I haven't done yet. If I write to them and say I was a patient and my appointment ran longer than expected (which it did) isn't that a form of admission that I was the driver?
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 21st Apr 17, 2:26 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    So I've drafted a letter of complaint to send to estates, patient experience, PALS and parking complaints.

    But I am a little confused, should I rewrite and explicitly state that the driver is not identified? Or does this not matter when you write to the landowner?

    Let me know what you think.

    Dear Sir/Madam

    I have received an unfair Parking Charge Notification (PCN) from Parking Eye on behalf of _______ Hospital. Their reference is xxxxxx/xxxxxx

    My appointment was scheduled for 15:30 on 13/02/2017 at the ______ Clinic, I arrived with plenty of time as indicated by the ANPR photograph on the PCN which is timestamped 14:59. It took me nearly half an hour to find a space as the car park was so full, narrowly avoiding being late for my appointment.

    This was my first visit to a hospital for any treatment, and I was already running late due to the aforementioned factors outside of my control, but I still found time to purchase parking for what I thought was a reasonable duration as indicated by hospital staff.

    The appointment was delayed by hospital staff and I left later than anticipated, it would not have been possible for me to have added to the paid amount as I was undergoing treatment.

    Before leaving the car park I checked but was unable to find any means of paying the difference, also the signage was overly complicated, and I was already late for a subsequent appointment elsewhere.

    I left the car park having parked for less than 30 minutes over the time purchased.

    As stated on the gov.uk website, the Department of Health NHS patient, visitor and staff car parking principles direct that Trusts should install ‘pay on exit’ or similar schemes so that drivers pay only for the time that they have used. They also state that additional charges should only be imposed where reasonable and should be waived when overstaying is beyond the driver’s control (e.g. when treatment takes longer than planned).

    I was a genuine patient at the hospital who took all reasonable measures to pay for parking in good faith. It is highly unfair to be charged an unreasonable amount for such a small infraction that was due to factors out of my control. This aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court has caused significant distress to me. As the landowner, you can contact ParkingEye to cancel the PCN.

    I look forward to your prompt response on this matter. I would like to keep a complete record of my case, so please reply via this email account.
    Last edited by Lertoc; 22-04-2017 at 11:53 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Apr 17, 11:55 PM
    • 48,302 Posts
    • 61,781 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I haven't done yet. If I write to them and say I was a patient and my appointment ran longer than expected (which it did) isn't that a form of admission that I was the driver?
    Yes. And you are not writing them a letter. You do this online to PE.

    Don't writing stuff saying who the driver was, your version shoots so many toes off with admissions and implication of the driver, I'm not sure where to start with it.

    You can say 'I was an occupant of the car but the driver will not be admitted' and then talk a bit about the appointment but change all the 'I' to 'we' (regardless of how many were in the car!) and remove any admissions, not this:

    left the car park having parked for less than 30 minutes over the time purchased.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 22nd Apr 17, 11:36 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    Thought so, thanks for this, although I am not sure about the "we" part as the ANPR photo can be used deduce that it was only one person in the car. Meh, it probably doesn't show the back seat though.

    I'll re-write it and send it off.
    Last edited by Lertoc; 22-04-2017 at 11:38 AM.
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 22nd Apr 17, 11:52 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    Also the "we" stuff kinda negates that the ticket couldn't have been "topped up" if there were 2 of us then someone could have gone out and added to it. Oh well, it was rephrased and sent out
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Apr 17, 6:15 PM
    • 48,302 Posts
    • 61,781 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thought so, thanks for this, although I am not sure about the "we" part as the ANPR photo can be used deduce that it was only one person in the car. Meh, it probably doesn't show the back seat though.
    Originally posted by Lertoc
    Indeed. the ANPR image shows them nothing and certainly not a name for the face (which can rarely be clearly seen anyway).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 27th Apr 17, 2:10 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    So I sent the rephrased letter out to the landowner (to their general complaints, parking complaints and PALS, it has been almost a complete working week and I have had no reply, when do you think Should pressure them?
    • Lertoc
    • By Lertoc 8th May 17, 12:44 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Lertoc
    It would seem that the original email to the hospital did not get through to any of the recipients, but after chasing them up again they quickly responded and apologised. A formal complaint was raised, a flurry of emails later and the charge was cancelled.

    I have since also received a letter from the chief executive stating that they are opening an investigation.

    Thanks for your help guys!
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