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  • FIRST POST
    • AngelHarmony
    • By AngelHarmony 19th Apr 17, 11:26 PM
    • 28Posts
    • 27Thanks
    AngelHarmony
    Parking Eye PCN at Derby & Burton Services
    • #1
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:26 PM
    Parking Eye PCN at Derby & Burton Services 19th Apr 17 at 11:26 PM
    I'm really hoping for some help please? I've been through lots of pages/posts including the Info for Newbies but I think I'm just tying myself in knots!

    At the beginning of last month I stopped at Derby & Burton Services. I know this service area fairly well as I used to live just a few minutes away from it. It's a large site with a wonderful food pub at one end, in the middle there's a fuel station with a KFC restaurant & drive-through & 3 other units that have varied since it opened. At the other end there's an Ibis Budget Hotel.

    I'm registered disabled, was tired & I just wanted a drink (from my flask), some fresh air & to let my dog out to stretch her legs. The first quiet area I spotted which also had grass was by the far end of the hotel so I parked there. With the exception of the food pub which has some shrubbery around it, the rest of the large car park is an open one. After half an hour I was back on my way home.

    Imagine my shock when a fortnight later I received a Parking Charge Notice for £60!! (It includes photo's of me arriving & leaving) Apparently "the car park is private land, only for authorised hotel guests/patrons only along with other terms & conditions of the car park". I know I was parked by the far end of the hotel but I didn't see any signs & definitely no boundary areas to say I wasn't allowed to park where I was. As far as I'm concerned, disabled needing a rest or not, I always thought a service area is supposed to be a place to get rest, food, drink, fuel etc., after all there are signs everywhere to take a break & not drive tired!!

    Although after receiving the PCN I looked on here as well as the motorway services online website to see who to contact about cancelling the PCN. I've then not been well over the last week so it was completely forgotten about until this morning when I received a second PCN telling me I now have 14 days to pay £100 & because I didn't appeal within 28 days of the date of the original PCN then I have no further right to appeal!!

    I've spent the day going through the forum but really don't know;

    a) exactly who to appeal to?
    b) can I appeal with any part of the DDA? (I've seen some others on here have)
    c) how to word my letter correctly? (I'm especially struggling with this)

    I'd be so very very grateful for some help/advice please.

    Many thanks in advance
Page 3
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jul 17, 6:41 PM
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    • 19,612 Thanks
    Redx
    what you do now is look at their evidence and rebut anything they claim that doesnt seem right to you

    so if the signage is poor on their evidence , say so

    but dont rewrite your popla appeal

    check signage , contracts etc

    is the contract dated and signed ? how long does it run for ? or is there no contract at all ?

    look for the discrepancies and point them out in your rebuttal , based on what PE have said in their evidence

    this is the first time you have seen their evidence , so find all the errors , mistakes etc and point them out to the popla assessor
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jul 17, 9:30 PM
    • 50,150 Posts
    • 63,524 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Is it worth trying to explain where I was parked?
    Nope - the opposite is true! This is for THEM to prove, not you! Do not talk about which signs you might have driven past, or walked past.


    You need to add some bullet point comments that say:

    - ParkingEye have failed to evidence where the car was parked, and from the confusing aerial 'view' it is impossible for me to tell.

    - the aerial view is undated and the 'dots' could be added at any time so there is no evidence that all dots were current signs. They could be planned signs, since the operator has misleadingly included evidence of extra signs that they 'plan to add shortly'.

    - This was a poorly-signed motorway services site, in driving rain, and no terms were seen except the invitation to drivers to stay/rest for 2 hours, an offer required by law.

    - the fact it was very poorly signed is proved by virtue of ParkingEye included the misleading 'evidence' (which means nothing in terms of my visit) that they are adding more signs shortly. This suggests they know it is badly signed.

    - the witness statement from the Services employee does not include which 'parking event on xx/xx/17' they are referring to. ParkingEye issue hundreds of PCNs every day on some sites and the witness statement does not identify my vehicle, nor is there any evidence that the Hotel area is not in fact leased separately by the Hotel.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 14-07-2017 at 9:49 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • AngelHarmony
    • By AngelHarmony 21st Jul 17, 11:21 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    AngelHarmony
    As 2000 isn't enough for comments on evidence, should I use the email address that the POPLA email originally came through from (info@popla......)?

    I've not been able to get on all week so now upto the wire as it's day 7

    Having now gone through the evidence I conclude the following;
    1. Although PE state they have written authority to operate on this private site, they've not provided any evidence to confirm it
    2. On looking at the photo's of the camera's, their position looks to be at least 16+ft high & definitely not visible whilst driving into the car park, especially in the driving rain
    3. Another photo of one of their sign's has a LWB Ford Transit van with the taller roof behind it, the bottom of the sign is at least as high as the van
    4. The only photo's provided of my car are of it entering & exiting the car park, there is nothing to prove where I was actually parked
    5. No witness statement provided

    Coupon-mad, I think almost all of what you'd put is spot on! I've actually looked at the aerial view on Google (it was about the only photo they didn't include!) which actually shows how the food pub down the bottom end has it's own car park, there's a lorry/coach park & then the main car park with the hotel at the top end is just an open one, is it worth me sending these screen shots or will POPLA look themselves?

    Any thoughts whilst I continue looking on here & putting my comments together (& hope the portal doesn't close at midnight!)

    Many thanks in advance
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Jul 17, 11:29 PM
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    • 63,524 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Although PE state they have written authority to operate on this private site, they've not provided any evidence to confirm it
    You will win then!

    You can email POPLA if your comments don't fit, but keep them short.

    Coupon-mad, I think almost all of what you'd put is spot on! I've actually looked at the aerial view on Google (it was about the only photo they didn't include!) which actually shows how the food pub down the bottom end has it's own car park, there's a lorry/coach park & then the main car park with the hotel at the top end is just an open one, is it worth me sending these screen shots or will POPLA look themselves?
    POPLA will never take a look themselves, you have to feed them the winning point - however you cannot add new evidence at this stage, only comments adding to your appeal points you had to start with.

    But with no landowner authority produced, not even a witness statement, they can't win.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • AngelHarmony
    • By AngelHarmony 21st Jul 17, 11:45 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    AngelHarmony
    In that case then shall I just tidy up my last post & submit that then (it might just fit)? xx
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jul 17, 12:01 AM
    • 50,150 Posts
    • 63,524 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would try to do that - amalgamate #1 with #5 (same point, really). And fit it in on the Portal.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • AngelHarmony
    • By AngelHarmony 22nd Jul 17, 12:14 AM
    • 28 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    AngelHarmony
    Like this?

    Dear POPLA Assessor

    RE: XXXXXXXXXX

    Having now gone through the evidence I conclude the following;

    1. Although Parking Eye state they have written authority to operate at this Service Area, they've not provided any evidence to confirm it & no witness statement has been provided.

    2. Parking Eye have failed to evidence where the car was parked, and from the evidence provided it is impossible for me to tell.

    3. On looking at the photo's of the camera's, their position looks to be at least 18+ft high & definitely not visible whilst driving into the car park, especially in the driving rain on the 05.03.17

    4. This was a poorly-signed motorway services site, in driving rain, and no terms were seen except the invitation to drivers to stay/rest for 2 hours, an offer required by law.

    5. Another photo of one of their sign's has a high roof, LWB Ford Transit van behind it, the bottom of the sign is higher than the top of the van

    6. The fact it was very poorly signed is proved by virtue of ParkingEye included the misleading 'evidence' (which means nothing in terms of my visit) that they are adding more signs shortly. This suggests they know it is badly signed.

    7. The only photo's provided of my car are of it entering & exiting the car park, there is no evidence to prove exactly where I actually parked
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jul 17, 12:22 AM
    • 50,150 Posts
    • 63,524 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Dear POPLA Assessor

    RE: XXXXXXXXXX

    No need for the above.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • AngelHarmony
    • By AngelHarmony 22nd Jul 17, 12:35 AM
    • 28 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    AngelHarmony
    Thankfully all comments have now gone through so fingers crossed for the right outcome

    Thanks again Coupon-mad xx
    • AngelHarmony
    • By AngelHarmony 2nd Aug 17, 2:42 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    AngelHarmony
    Hooray!!
    At last!! Huge thanks for all of the help & advice given, I couldn't have done this otherwise. Special thanks to Coupon-mad

    Decision - Successful
    Assessor Name Alexandra Wilcock
    Assessor summary of operator case
    The appellant parked on site without a valid permit, authorising the vehicle to park on site.

    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant states the signage is not clear. The appellant states the signage is not adequate as per the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. She advised that the terms and conditions do not apply with the Roadway Services Area’s- Highway’s Agency circular 01/2008, set by Parliament. She says the operator has not provided any evidence to demonstrate that it has the appropriate landowner authorisation to issue Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the site in question. The appellant states the signage fails to inform motorists that the site is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) systems. She says the operator has failed to comply with Consumer Rights Act 2015. She states the amount demanded by the operator is a penalty. The appellant states as a disabled motorist under the Equality Act 2012 she is entitled to reasonable adjustments. She advised it is her legal right to take a break due to personal needs.

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    The appellant says the operator has not provided any evidence to demonstrate that it has the appropriate landowner authorisation to issue PCN on the site in question. In terms of POPLA appeals, the burden of proof belongs with the operator to demonstrate it has issued the PCN correctly and to rebut the appellant’s grounds for appeal. I would expect the operator to provide written landowner authority or a valid witness statement to rebut the appellant claims, that the operator does not have landowner authority to issue PCN’s on the site in question. Section 7.3 of The BPA, Code of Practice states “The written authorisation must also set out: a the definition of the land on which you may operate”. I appreciate the operator has stated in its summary that the operator does have landowner authority to enforce parking restrictions however; the operator has not provided any evidence to demonstrate this. As I am not able to determine whether the operator has landowner authorisation to issue PCN’s due to no evidence of this being provided, I can only conclude that the PCN was issued incorrectly.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Aug 17, 3:30 PM
    • 15,526 Posts
    • 19,612 Thanks
    Redx
    well done

    this seems to have been a text book example of how an appeal should be gone through with good advice to a newbie who didnt realise that the PPC has to prove its case, including evidence like landowner contracts

    it wasnt up to the apellant to prove their case, but to refute and rebut the PE case , which was exactly what happened , including the rebuttal to the PE evidence pack

    had we known that PE would not or could not provide a landowner contract, it could have been a single point appeal

    maybe others going through this process could learn from this thread what the real crack is with these things
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • AngelHarmony
    • By AngelHarmony 2nd Aug 17, 5:32 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    AngelHarmony
    I know!! I've certainly learnt a lot from this & will be forever grateful to everyone on here for all of the help that they gave me.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 3rd Aug 17, 7:13 AM
    • 505 Posts
    • 604 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Well done! Textbook appeal and great result
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