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  • FIRST POST
    • Alan Cross
    • By Alan Cross 19th Apr 17, 8:50 PM
    • 1,115Posts
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    Alan Cross
    Giving it all away to avoid care costs
    • #1
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:50 PM
    Giving it all away to avoid care costs 19th Apr 17 at 8:50 PM
    This is an academic question but I hope someone knows the answer!

    What is the position with regard to local authority help with care costs if you have, in effect, given away most of your estate - house, savings etc. - to, for example, the kids?

    I seem to remember that there is some kind of 'waiting period' like seven years before they recognise that the stuff genuinely belongs to someone else but I may be thinking of HMRC and Inheritance Tax.

    I am not actually intending to do this but would appreciate being put straight by anyone in the know.
Page 2
    • p00hsticks
    • By p00hsticks 20th Apr 17, 7:15 PM
    • 5,529 Posts
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    p00hsticks
    Both my grans ended up in care homes.!
    Originally posted by lovinituk
    To put the other side of the argument, both of my grandmothers ended up in the same care home at the same time.
    Originally posted by AndyAdams
    Statistically, for both of your grandmothers to end up in care homes is unusual. Whilst as we live longer it is happening more frequently, spending ones final days in care is still far from the norm. Three of my grandparents died in their own homes, and the fourth in intensive care shortly after a major stroke.
    • lovinituk
    • By lovinituk 20th Apr 17, 7:59 PM
    • 5,372 Posts
    • 6,028 Thanks
    lovinituk
    Statistically, for both of your grandmothers to end up in care homes is unusual. Whilst as we live longer it is happening more frequently, spending ones final days in care is still far from the norm. Three of my grandparents died in their own homes, and the fourth in intensive care shortly after a major stroke.
    Originally posted by p00hsticks
    One of my grandads also died in a care home. The other one died of a heart attack in his favourite pub!
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 21st Apr 17, 9:32 AM
    • 2,592 Posts
    • 3,684 Thanks
    Malthusian
    Three of my grandparents died in their home or after a short stay in hospital (a few days). One went into a care home for a year or so.

    To put the other side of the argument, both of my grandmothers ended up in the same care home at the same time. One was 100% funded by the council the other had to pay her care fees as she had a home. The home was sold to pay for the care home fees.
    Originally posted by AndyAdams
    That's such an unusual coincidence it almost sounds like a parable. I don't doubt that it's true, but the reality for someone who relies on the state is far more likely to be of the kind that Lovinituk described.

    If I was living out my final days in a care home next door to someone who had no money and was being funded by the council, then I would have spent the last 80-odd years living a far more comfortable life than my neighbour, thanks to the fact that I provide for myself and he has lived his life dependent on the tender mercies of the state. It seems odd to get bitter just because he gets to live in the same place as me for the last two, probably less.

    Besides, they can turf him out at any second if the council decides they don't want to pay for that home anymore, but they can't do the same to me. Conversely, if the home changes hands and the standard of care goes to pot I can move, while he is stuck. There is literally nothing to envy him over.

    I just feel that doesn't seem particularly fair.
    Fair is a meaningless word invented to allow children to take part in adult conversations. The question is whether you want to squander all your assets so that you can live a life dependent on the state. You can make that choice at any stage of life, not just in your dotage. Few of us would.
    Last edited by Malthusian; 21-04-2017 at 9:37 AM.
    • SallyG
    • By SallyG 21st Apr 17, 7:50 PM
    • 829 Posts
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    SallyG
    What about the increasingly common situation where grown up kids are back in the maternal home out of necessity after marriage breakdown/business failure/redundancy/mortgage default - no other home to go to - if the parent/s need eventually to go into a care home where does that leave the adult offspring who rely on the maternal home for a roof over their heads?
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 21st Apr 17, 8:02 PM
    • 4,942 Posts
    • 6,920 Thanks
    Kynthia
    What about the increasingly common situation where grown up kids are back in the maternal home out of necessity after marriage breakdown/business failure/redundancy/mortgage default - no other home to go to - if the parent/s need eventually to go into a care home where does that leave the adult offspring who rely on the maternal home for a roof over their heads?
    Originally posted by SallyG
    Adults, with few exceptions, are not dependants and are expected to stand on their own two feet or claim benefits if they qualify.

    So far i've had a grandmother in a home for a year or two, another and also a father-in-law in one for a few weeks after a long hospital stay, and two grandfathers who died suddenly when not 'unwell' or in care. so only 1 in 5 so far who spent more than a handful of weeks in care. Yet some people act likes its a given, to their detriment.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
    • Fireflyaway
    • By Fireflyaway 21st Apr 17, 8:31 PM
    • 1,076 Posts
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    Fireflyaway
    My parents have a paid for house and considerable savings and I'm an only child. My hope is that should they need care one day, they will be able to afford to chose what form that takes - a live in carer or a residential home of their choice. Should they need to use all of their savings, or sell the house to do this its fine by me. I want them to be happy and well cared for. After all, if they move into residential care, they won't need their house!
    I don't see why people are so against having to sell their home to fund care? If you lived at home you would have to pay for lights, water, council tax, food etc so why should it be 'free' (funded by already struggling councils) if you use those services in a residential home?
    What I do disagree with is that some people (who have worked hard and saved etc) have to pay whilst others don't. That is wrong. Services cost what they cost and everyone should be made to pay the same if they use them.
    Sorry OP that was a bit of a rant! I know you can have an arrangement that if one partner passes away, their share of the estate is passed to their chosen beneficiary rather than automatically to the surviving partner. That way if the surviving partner needs care, only their half can be used to fund it, the rest has already been bequeathed.
    • anney63
    • By anney63 21st Apr 17, 11:48 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    anney63
    Trustees
    Trustees now gone into care 2 added trustees not acting professionally . My mother in law has gone in a care home her was in trust with her sister both of whom are in care home. The 2 added trustees are selling the house . Which I believe is wrong . I am power of attorney for 1 of the ladies . What can I do. I am also a beneficery. They are selling to a relative who has been to an estate agent and got her own valuation as she has been given a key . Today I had a valuation done which is 40k more than her valuation . My belief is that the house has to be marketed at the highest price there is no reason for a quick sale
    Last edited by anney63; 22-04-2017 at 12:06 AM. Reason: No title
    • p00hsticks
    • By p00hsticks 22nd Apr 17, 12:17 AM
    • 5,529 Posts
    • 5,071 Thanks
    p00hsticks
    What about the increasingly common situation where grown up kids are back in the maternal home out of necessity after marriage breakdown/business failure/redundancy/mortgage default - no other home to go to - if the parent/s need eventually to go into a care home where does that leave the adult offspring who rely on the maternal home for a roof over their heads?
    Originally posted by SallyG
    If a partner/spouse, relative over the age of 60, child under the age of 18 or disabled relative is living in the property then it's currently excluded from the means test calculation
    • p00hsticks
    • By p00hsticks 22nd Apr 17, 12:33 AM
    • 5,529 Posts
    • 5,071 Thanks
    p00hsticks
    What I do disagree with is that some people (who have worked hard and saved etc) have to pay whilst others don't. That is wrong. Services cost what they cost and everyone should be made to pay the same if they use them.
    Originally posted by Fireflyaway
    The problem is that some people simply don't have the money to pay for their care, however hard they have worked. My mother in law spent the last eighteen months of her life in care. She worked hard (full time) all her life but in low paid jobs (cleaning etc), and was effectively living hand to mouth (this was before tax credits etc). She lived in council housing and had no savings and only a small pension of her own and widows pension on top of her state pension.

    All of her pensions apart from the £25 a week allowed (which was used for clothes, toiletries, hairdresser etc) went towards her care, but she was still reliant on the local authority to pay the majority of the bill (which was around £650 a week).

    If you genuinely believe that everyone should pay the same then you either have to fix the bar at what the lowest can afford to pay, which could be next to nothing, or set it higher knowing that that will simply abandon the poorest people that can no longer care for themselves. I hope our society is better than that.
    • phillw
    • By phillw 22nd Apr 17, 4:10 PM
    • 674 Posts
    • 339 Thanks
    phillw
    What about the increasingly common situation where grown up kids are back in the maternal home out of necessity after marriage breakdown/business failure/redundancy/mortgage default - no other home to go to - if the parent/s need eventually to go into a care home where does that leave the adult offspring who rely on the maternal home for a roof over their heads?
    Originally posted by SallyG
    I believe you can gift a share of the property to the adult living with you as tenants in common & leave a life interest in the property to them for the rest. You would need to do it well in advance of needing to go into a care home. The split doesn't have to be 50/50, but only the value of their share can be taken into account (currently it appears the value is assumed to be almost zero as nobody buys half shares of houses, but that could change). You would need to obtain robust legal advice.
    • BobQ
    • By BobQ 22nd Apr 17, 11:48 PM
    • 9,639 Posts
    • 12,515 Thanks
    BobQ
    Trustees now gone into care 2 added trustees not acting professionally . My mother in law has gone in a care home her was in trust with her sister both of whom are in care home. The 2 added trustees are selling the house . Which I believe is wrong . I am power of attorney for 1 of the ladies . What can I do. I am also a beneficery. They are selling to a relative who has been to an estate agent and got her own valuation as she has been given a key . Today I had a valuation done which is 40k more than her valuation . My belief is that the house has to be marketed at the highest price there is no reason for a quick sale
    Originally posted by anney63
    Best to start your own thread rather than latch on to the OP's thread
    Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.
    • BobQ
    • By BobQ 23rd Apr 17, 12:11 AM
    • 9,639 Posts
    • 12,515 Thanks
    BobQ
    What about the increasingly common situation where grown up kids are back in the maternal home out of necessity after marriage breakdown/business failure/redundancy/mortgage default - no other home to go to - if the parent/s need eventually to go into a care home where does that leave the adult offspring who rely on the maternal home for a roof over their heads?
    Originally posted by SallyG
    An adult is expected to fend for themselves.

    Unless the person has reason to expect to go into a care home, they can still gift part of a property to someone else. If they gift it to a close relative living there in many cases that will be enough to delay or prevent the need for a care home. The longer that elapses after the gift the more unlikely it is that it will be seen as deprivation of assets. In those situations a LA is not likely to push for the house to be sold but instead seek to place a charge on the property to the value of the share owned by the care home resident.
    Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.
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