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  • FIRST POST
    • studiousowl
    • By studiousowl 19th Apr 17, 6:04 PM
    • 17Posts
    • 8Thanks
    studiousowl
    PCN from CPP at Hospital
    • #1
    • 19th Apr 17, 6:04 PM
    PCN from CPP at Hospital 19th Apr 17 at 6:04 PM
    Hello,

    Earlier this month I received a PCN from CPP at St George's Hospital. I am a student there and have been parking on site in one of the many staff car parks for almost a year now. I did receive a PCN from them once before in March of last year which I paid.
    I have been reading this forum for a while now, and although the NEWBIE thread is very helpful, I do have a few questions:

    1- I am technically in the wrong as I was parked in a restricted area without a valid permit. Can I still appeal?
    2- I understand that most appeals are rejected and go to POPLA. If the appeal to POPLA is lost what will the charge incurred be? At the moment, the amount due is £80 (£40 if paid within 14 days - it is currently still £40 although now on day 19). I am just worried as unfortunately the stereotype of broke student rings true here - and as much as I'd like to fight the system - I am worried that the currently barely affordable £40 may balloon up to something more unfortunate!

    I'd really appreciate your help.
    Thanks!
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 17, 6:27 PM
    • 51,581 Posts
    • 65,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 19th Apr 17, 6:27 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Apr 17, 6:27 PM
    1- technically in the wrong as THE DRIVER was parked in a restricted area without a valid permit. Can I still appeal?
    Yes, certainly, because that's not what the registered keeper is appealing about. The drive's name does NOT feature, nor do excuses.

    2- I understand that most appeals are rejected and go to POPLA. If the appeal to POPLA is lost what will the charge incurred be? At the moment, the amount due is £80
    If the registered keeper (not saying who was driving) manages to lose at POPLA we will all eat our hats and you would be told by POPLA, merely wagging a finger, that you *should* pay the £80 (no discount bribe any more). But, the keeper still does NOT have to pay because POPLA is just an exercise for an appellant and is not binding like it is on the parking industry. And - we win!

    Take that leap of faith with us! I have four student (Uni and college age) children and whilst only one of them drives I would have no hesistation in telling them to appeal this - so please listen to us! We know what we are doing.

    It's Liberty Printers (AR &RF Reddin) Ltd T/A Liberty Services and The Car Parking Partnership who are easy to see off at POPLA and probably will forget to serve any valid Notice to Keeper (if at all).

    I assume this was a windscreen PCN?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • studiousowl
    • By studiousowl 19th Apr 17, 9:30 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    studiousowl
    • #3
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:30 PM
    • #3
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:30 PM
    Yes this was a windscreen PCN. Okay, I will appeal as advised on the Newbie thread (day 26) and let you know how it goes. Prior to a friend telling me about these private parking companies, I had no idea that I was not obliged to pay these fines. They should teach us these things in school! Thanks again for your help!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 17, 9:33 PM
    • 51,581 Posts
    • 65,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:33 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:33 PM
    Thing is, if they taught you that in school they would have to cover so many different connotations - company, trade body, risk of being sued - and then things would change within a month!

    At this point in time I can tell you this will be easy to win at POPLA.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • studiousowl
    • By studiousowl 19th Apr 17, 10:23 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    studiousowl
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 10:23 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 10:23 PM
    Awesome - thanks!
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 19th Apr 17, 11:25 PM
    • 3,848 Posts
    • 5,419 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:25 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:25 PM
    you should also complain to the hospital
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • studiousowl
    • By studiousowl 12th May 17, 6:22 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    studiousowl
    • #7
    • 12th May 17, 6:22 PM
    • #7
    • 12th May 17, 6:22 PM
    hello again,

    CPP have replied, writing:

    Thank you for your correspondence in relation to the Parking Charge incurred on 05 April 2017 at
    13:08, at XXX car park.
    We are writing to advise you that your recent appeal has been referred for further information.
    You have stated that you were not the driver of the vehicle at the date and time of the breach of
    the terms and conditions of the car park, but you have not indicated who was.
    Paragraph 8(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, states that the driver of
    the motor vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full. It also notes that, as the operator
    does not know the driver’s name or current postal address, the registered keeper, if they were not
    the driver at the time, should inform the operator of the name and current postal address of the
    driver and pass the notice to them.
    You are warned that if, after 29 days from the Date of Issue, the parking charge has not been
    paid in full and we do not know both the name and current address of the driver, we have the right
    to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you, the registered keeper. This warning is
    given to you under paragraph 8(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and is
    subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under schedule 4 of that Act.
    This Parking Charge has been placed on hold for 14 days in order for you to provide
    additional/further evidence.
    If this charge has been paid and you choose to provide further evidence relating to your appeal,
    please forward this to us for consideration."

    Is this considered a notice to keeper or a reply to the appeal? They have also attached a few pages of legal information e.g. enforcement of the charge; protection of freedoms act and freedom liability...
    At this point should I write to POPLA?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th May 17, 6:33 PM
    • 2,100 Posts
    • 2,506 Thanks
    waamo
    • #8
    • 12th May 17, 6:33 PM
    • #8
    • 12th May 17, 6:33 PM
    Yes write to POPLA using the templates from here. FWIW so far it's waamo 6 CPP 0 they are easy to beat at POPLA.

    Post your draft appeal here before you send it though.
    This space for hire.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th May 17, 6:40 PM
    • 16,579 Posts
    • 20,736 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 12th May 17, 6:40 PM
    • #9
    • 12th May 17, 6:40 PM
    this appears to be a reply to the initial appeal and they are phishing for the drivers details

    there does not appear to be a POPLA code

    wait for the rejection and a valid popla code , then appeal to popla

    or , if you get an NTK in the post in the KEEPERS name, use the template appeal once more, then wait for a popla code , then appeal to popla
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th May 17, 8:29 PM
    • 15,572 Posts
    • 24,314 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    the motor vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full. It also notes that, as the operator
    does not know the driver’s name or current postal address, the registered keeper, if they were not
    the driver at the time, should inform the operator of the name and current postal address
    No it does not. This is a complete and utter misrepresentation. Check out what it really says here:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    Then complain to the DVLA that CPP are misleading you to your detriment by misrepresenting your position in the context of the PoFA 2012. Ask them what action they will be taking. Ask them to deal with this directly as you have no faith in the BPA dealing with it. In fact it is not a BPA Code of Practice issue at all; it is more fundamental than that, it is a complete misrepresentation of the law.

    Lay it on really heavy. Just do it. Some PPCs have been banned for misrepresentation.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • studiousowl
    • By studiousowl 19th May 17, 11:17 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    studiousowl
    I have emailed the DVLA complaints team as you've advised re CPP's misrepresentation of the law and am waiting on their response.
    CPP have yet to respond to my appeal also.
    Thanks everyone for your help, but there has been something worrying me - I am not registered keeper of the car, my mother is. So I am just worried about getting her into trouble. Do you think I should just continue with the appeals process (there is another ticket I am appealing also). Or is it risky?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th May 17, 8:36 AM
    • 15,572 Posts
    • 24,314 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    It needs to be done in your mother's name, although you can do all the work on it.

    Was the Notice to Keeper addressed to your mother? Have you appealed in your own name to CPP? You may not get a response if that's the case.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th May 17, 1:45 PM
    • 51,581 Posts
    • 65,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    There is no risk. Worst case scenario would be if she lost a defended case in small claims (think Judge Rinder-ish) then one of you would need to finally pay, and for a lost PCN case that's about £150 all told. No risk, no CCJ as long as court deadlines are not missed or ignored.

    And 'Liberty Printers (AR &RF Reddin) Ltd T/A Liberty Services and The Car Parking Partnership' are not litigious, at all, nul, zero, none:

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Car_Parking_Partnership.html

    If that 'on hold' reply is by email, just reply 'gimmee my POPLA code'. We win at POPLA. If that's a letter, don't waste a stamp, just wait.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • waamo
    • By waamo 20th May 17, 1:52 PM
    • 2,100 Posts
    • 2,506 Thanks
    waamo
    Which CPP is this? CP Plus or Car Parking Partnership?
    This space for hire.
    • studiousowl
    • By studiousowl 21st May 17, 9:27 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    studiousowl
    No, all my responses have been in her name as registered keeper. I just don't want to put her in a situation where she needs to go to court - which is why I was a little worried.
    That 'appeal on hold' response was via an email not a letter. I have not received a notice to keeper nor have I received a formal rejection of the appeal. Should I just ask for a POPLA code from now or wait for them to reject?
    This is CPP (Car Parking Partnership)
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 21st May 17, 9:48 PM
    • 15,572 Posts
    • 24,314 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    No, all my responses have been in her name as registered keeper. I just don't want to put her in a situation where she needs to go to court - which is why I was a little worried.
    That 'appeal on hold' response was via an email not a letter. I have not received a notice to keeper nor have I received a formal rejection of the appeal. Should I just ask for a POPLA code from now or wait for them to reject?
    This is CPP (Car Parking Partnership)
    Originally posted by studiousowl
    If you send in the template initial appeal, their (almost guaranteed) rejection of it should be accompanied by a POPLA code. There's no need to ask for it - it's their duty to provide you with one.

    If they don't, you can make life just a bit more difficult for them with a complaint to the DVLA and BPA (even join in your prospective MPs, who will be seeking your vote, and ask them to add pressure by posing awkward questions to the PPC, DVLA and BPA.).

    Don't be supinely compliant - really bite back at these vermin.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st May 17, 10:28 PM
    • 51,581 Posts
    • 65,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No, all my responses have been in her name as registered keeper. I just don't want to put her in a situation where she needs to go to court - which is why I was a little worried.
    That 'appeal on hold' response was via an email not a letter. I have not received a notice to keeper nor have I received a formal rejection of the appeal. Should I just ask for a POPLA code from now or wait for them to reject?
    This is CPP (Car Parking Partnership)
    Originally posted by studiousowl
    I would probably wait and see. No NTK (if there has only ever been a windscreen PCN) means if it gets past day 56 with no NTK, she will win at POPLA. No worries here. Happens a lot.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • studiousowl
    • By studiousowl 2nd Jun 17, 4:18 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    studiousowl
    Hello,

    CPP have formally rejected my second ticket's appeal and sent over a POPLA code.
    They still have not replied regarding the appeal to my first ticket - the only email they sent regarding that was the one mentioned above (i.e. 'referred for further information') so I have not pursued it further?

    Also, the DVLA have replied to my email about CPP - essentially shrugging me off to BPA:

    "I have investigated this matter and can confirm that the DVLA has not received a request for the registered keeper data for vehicle registration number XXXXXX. It is not a matter for the Agency to decide on the merits of individual cases or to arbitrate in any civil disputes between motorists and private car park enforcement companies or the appeals process. The DVLA cannot regulate any aspect of a company’s business. Any representations should be made to the organisation in question.

    If you feel that any of the practices used by the company did not comply with the BPA’s code of practice, you may wish to contact the BPA at ........."
    So unfortunately that didn't work.



    I will now start working on my POPLA appeal. Any advice?


    Thanks again
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Jun 17, 4:24 PM
    • 16,579 Posts
    • 20,736 Thanks
    Redx
    yes, read post #3 of the NEWBIES sticky thread and base your draft popla appeal on the ones you read in there
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jun 17, 8:21 PM
    • 51,581 Posts
    • 65,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I have investigated this matter and can confirm that the DVLA has not received a request for the registered keeper data for vehicle registration number XXXXXX.
    That should be used in your POPLA appeal point that there can be no 'keeper liability'. Cite the part in Schedule 4 (linked in the NEWBIES thread, and also by Umkomaas above in post #10 on your thread) that says the operator MUST obtain the keeper's data from the Secretary of State (i.e. the DVLA) and there is no other option in the statute for getting keeper data in any other way, not from appeal, nothing else.

    And the PPC has not sent any NTK so they will now crash and burn at POPLA. As I said earlier:

    If the registered keeper (not saying who was driving) manages to lose at POPLA we will all eat our hats
    You just need to build the template POPLA appeal points, gathering them all from post #3 of the NEWBIES thread where they are linked. You can use at least four of them.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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