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  • FIRST POST
    • ummagoomba
    • By ummagoomba 19th Apr 17, 2:23 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 2Thanks
    ummagoomba
    Looking For Advice - Considering Paying Parking Charge
    • #1
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:23 PM
    Looking For Advice - Considering Paying Parking Charge 19th Apr 17 at 2:23 PM
    In August 2014, I received a PCN, which I ignored. I received the expected run of letters over the course of a few months then, nothing. Today I received another, along the same lines. 'Pay within 14 days or we will recommend court proceedings be taken against you.' They want £130.

    It's only a single incident,I live in Scotland so I understand that the law is a bit different here. But this happened recently:

    "Woman must pay £24,000 in charges after ignoring parking notices" - I am unable to post links.

    I am wondering if they are just trying their luck in light of this, in the hope people will be scared into paying. But, I have a couple of queries here:

    1 - Is there a time limit with how long they can take something to court? That's not far off three years now.

    2 - What is the chances that they will take me to court over £130?

    It's less hassle for me to pay the thing than it is to mount a defense if it did go to court.
Page 1
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 19th Apr 17, 2:35 PM
    • 3,598 Posts
    • 5,092 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #2
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:35 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:35 PM
    chances of court are very low to non existent in your case.
    the case you mention was for want of a better word exceptional, the key with scottish cases is never give any clue as to who you think the driver could have been, and not to continuosly rack up charges without doing something about it (either not parking there, or by taking action to question the validity of the pcn's)
    Do you know how the original parking charge was picked up, and where?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Apr 17, 2:36 PM
    • 14,465 Posts
    • 18,059 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:36 PM
    • #3
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:36 PM
    read recent threads on this issue, like

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5636131

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5633195

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5635017

    for small claims its 5 years in Scotland
    Last edited by Redx; 19-04-2017 at 2:48 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Apr 17, 2:44 PM
    • 13,161 Posts
    • 20,565 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:44 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:44 PM
    "Woman must pay £24,000 in charges after ignoring parking notices"
    She admitted to being the driver and had racked up 200 tickets. A totally different league!

    I am wondering if they are just trying their luck in light of this, in the hope people will be scared into paying
    Yes!

    Is there a time limit with how long they can take something to court? That's not far off three years now
    5 years in Scotland (6 years in E/W).

    What is the chances that they will take me to court over £130?
    None at all if the driver hasn't been identified. Infinitesimal chance if the driver has been identified.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ummagoomba
    • By ummagoomba 19th Apr 17, 2:46 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ummagoomba
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:46 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:46 PM
    chances of court are very low to non existent in your case.
    the case you mention was for want of a better word exceptional, the key with scottish cases is never give any clue as to who you think the driver could have been, and not to continuosly rack up charges without doing something about it (either not parking there, or by taking action to question the validity of the pcn's)
    Do you know how the original parking charge was picked up, and where?
    Originally posted by Half_way
    Thanks. Yeah, I think so. Space was probably used as a temporary parking place and forgotten about. Not 100% sure but I *think* that may have been the case.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Apr 17, 2:49 PM
    • 39,242 Posts
    • 78,406 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:49 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:49 PM
    As above, you are safe for a single ticket in Scotland if the scammers don't know who the driver is.
    Also as above, the woman involved in the £24000 case gave away the fact that she was driving, and stupidly continued to park somewhere she was not entitled to park 200 times.

    Debt collectors can be ignored anywhere in the UK. Everything parking scammers send can be ignored in Scotland or NI unless it is real court papers from a real court.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ummagoomba
    • By ummagoomba 19th Apr 17, 3:00 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ummagoomba
    • #7
    • 19th Apr 17, 3:00 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Apr 17, 3:00 PM
    Thanks all, appreciate the feedback. I see there have been quite a few people posting this sort of thing, who reside in Scotland so clearly the parking companies are ramping up again. If I may ask one final question. If by chance it did go to court, how do I NOT reveal who the driver was? Are you allowed to not answer the question or is a simple 'I can't remember' enough?
    • yotmon
    • By yotmon 19th Apr 17, 5:05 PM
    • 457 Posts
    • 645 Thanks
    yotmon
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 17, 5:05 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 17, 5:05 PM
    Thanks all, appreciate the feedback. I see there have been quite a few people posting this sort of thing, who reside in Scotland so clearly the parking companies are ramping up again. If I may ask one final question. If by chance it did go to court, how do I NOT reveal who the driver was? Are you allowed to not answer the question or is a simple 'I can't remember' enough?
    Originally posted by ummagoomba
    Under Scots law (No PoFa) they can only take the driver to court. They would have to produce 'some' evidence that it was you driving. I cannot see any court allowing them to haul the 'keeper' into court, just to be given the opportunity to ask them if they were driving. You are not there to prove their case for them, it is up to them to them to produce the evidence.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 17, 6:53 PM
    • 46,966 Posts
    • 60,335 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 6:53 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 6:53 PM
    Considering Paying Parking Charge
    No you are not, come on, look here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72359397#post72359397

    What makes you think that a non-precedent case in which a driver was admitted, affects other cases? It is the claimant's case to prove and people are not routinely asked 'were you driving?'. The burden is the claimant's.

    The Robb case - as mentioned by Tom Trinder in that link - tells you that each case turns on its own facts:


    "Dundee man wins £700 parking ticket case

    A sheriff has thrown out a private parking company’s case against a Dundee man who racked up more than £700 in tickets, branding the action “incompetent.”

    But the decision will not act as a test case on the legitimacy of future private parking charge claims, a Dundee solicitor has warned.

    Vehicle Control Services (VCS) took Mark Robb to the city’s small claims court after he refused to pay charges on tickets received in Trades Lane and Cross Lane between December 2013 and May 2014.

    But Sheriff Alastair Brown dismissed the case and awarded Mr Robb expenses, saying VCS’s agent had provided “no evidence whatsoever” that he had been the driver of the vehicle at the time.

    After the decision, Mr Robb’s solicitor Gary McIlravey pursued expenses at the level granted in summary cause cases rather than at the small claims court level.

    However, Sheriff Brown told him: “I can only grant expenses on a punitive scale if they have conducted themselves inappropriately. On this occasion they conducted themselves incompetently but not inappropriately.”

    Mr McIlravey said: “Each case will turn on its own facts. There’s no underlying legal principle.” "
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-04-2017 at 6:57 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 20th Apr 17, 7:03 AM
    • 1,295 Posts
    • 2,381 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    [Sheriff] Court in Scotland is not Gladstones/SCS/BW friendly. While in England, these cases are now being run by the ambulance chasers on a "no win/no fee basis", Scots Courts have a more long winded process that does not lend itself to a "no win/no fee" basis. It is no longer a case of law but simple economics.

    The only cases you see up there are for many multiples or show cases. Since it won't be economical to take one ticket to court, is there anything you've done that warrants you being a "show case"
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • Blibble
    • By Blibble 20th Apr 17, 7:41 AM
    • 121 Posts
    • 55 Thanks
    Blibble
    Have you had any other previous correspondence with the PPC at the time when the PCN was first issued, where you have disclosed who the driver was?

    If not, then it's safe to leave this one for the time being. PoFA is not applicable in Scotland, therefore there is no keeper liability and only the driver could be pursued through the courts as already noted.
    • ummagoomba
    • By ummagoomba 23rd Apr 17, 9:47 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ummagoomba
    Hi All,

    Thanks for all the replies and, sorry for the delays, have been busy with work and family life.

    @Coupon-mad - Thanks for the re-assurance, I will try to remain strong for now .

    @IamEmanresu - I have had two PPC notices in the past (this one being the second), from different companies, in different locations. The first one was a year or so before this and I have never heard from them since the initial letters came through. That might actually be 4-5 years ago now. Other than that, the only other thing that could potentially be an issue here, is that the place where they are referring to on the PPC, is on the same street as my work. I am worried that they will try to suggest that since it was during the working week, on the same street as my place of work, then it was me who was most likely the driver, regardless of what I say,

    @Blibble - I never responded to any of the previous communication. It was complete radio silence from me.
    • Autolycus2000
    • By Autolycus2000 23rd Apr 17, 9:57 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    Autolycus2000
    Other than that, the only other thing that could potentially be an issue here, is that the place where they are referring to on the PPC, is on the same street as my work. I am worried that they will try to suggest that since it was during the working week, on the same street as my place of work, then it was me who was most likely the driver, regardless of what I say,.
    Originally posted by ummagoomba
    I understand your concern. However.....

    How will they know where you work?

    Even if they do know that you work in a building on the same street as where the car was parked, the onus is still on them to prove that you were the driver that day.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 23rd Apr 17, 10:31 PM
    • 13,161 Posts
    • 20,565 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    You're overthinking, overcomplicating and overworrying about this.

    If you think that any PPC is going to have to jump through significantly more hoops in Scotland than they would in E/W (where even if they win, they lose, as it costs more than they can recover) where it would likely cost significantly more in terms of both effort and £s, for just £130 - you've definitely overestimated their case.

    You've not told us who the PPC is; this will help us provide better contextual advice. If, as many Scotland cases are, it's Smart Parking - well they're no problem.

    Please tell us who exactly is chasing you on this.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ummagoomba
    • By ummagoomba 24th Apr 17, 3:26 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ummagoomba
    You're overthinking, overcomplicating and overworrying about this.

    If you think that any PPC is going to have to jump through significantly more hoops in Scotland than they would in E/W (where even if they win, they lose, as it costs more than they can recover) where it would likely cost significantly more in terms of both effort and £s, for just £130 - you've definitely overestimated their case.

    You've not told us who the PPC is; this will help us provide better contextual advice. If, as many Scotland cases are, it's Smart Parking - well they're no problem.

    Please tell us who exactly is chasing you on this.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thanks for the re-assurance and, sorry for not mentioning the company. PPC is from Smart Parking and the letter from Debt Recovery Plus. I feel more settled now though, so thanks to you and everyone else who took the time to respond. It is much appreciated.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Apr 17, 3:53 PM
    • 13,161 Posts
    • 20,565 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thanks for the re-assurance and, sorry for not mentioning the company. PPC is from Smart Parking and the letter from Debt Recovery Plus. I feel more settled now though, so thanks to you and everyone else who took the time to respond. It is much appreciated.
    Originally posted by ummagoomba
    Well, here's Smart's record of court appearances in England and Wales:

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Smart_Parking.html

    Over two thirds of a million tickets issued in two and a bit years and not one single court case - ever - in that time.

    Do you really think you could be their first ever in the UK, and for just £130?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ummagoomba
    • By ummagoomba 25th Apr 17, 3:40 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ummagoomba
    Well, here's Smart's record of court appearances in England and Wales:

    Over two thirds of a million tickets issued in two and a bit years and not one single court case - ever - in that time.

    Do you really think you could be their first ever in the UK, and for just £130?
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    I hope not..lol Thanks once again, I feel re-assured. Was just beginning to have doubts because I wasn't expecting this to rear it's head again but you and the others have been brilliant. Thank you.
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