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  • FIRST POST
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 19th Apr 17, 2:18 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 12Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Civil enforcement limited claim form received
    • #1
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:18 PM
    Civil enforcement limited claim form received 19th Apr 17 at 2:18 PM
    Hi.

    I've recently received a claim form from County court business centre following a PCN from CEL now totalling £322.90. The original invoice was for £100, which (having read through lots of newbie advice on these forums) I now know that I was stupid to ignore.
    I received debt collector letter which referred to a PCN of £140 ?? The car was only in the car park for 20 minutes but no ticket was purchased.

    I have acknowledged service on the MCOL website and am going to prepare my defence. I now only have until 5th May to provide a defence. I'm in a bit of a panic and even though I've read through so much online i still would really appreciate some specific advice.

    For information, I am the registered keeper but was not the driver and can potentially prove that with a letter from my work. I haven't received a NTK.

    Please can someone confirm whether I am too late to write to CEL with the following questions?

    Re PCN number: xxxxxxxx

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are the the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that were in place on the 19 August 2016 which specified the parking rules.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle on 19 August 2016.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and was sufficiently calibrated.
    6. Please confirm whether the Parking charge notice was a notice to the driver or the registered keeper.

    I deny liability for any sum at all. I will keep a copy of this email and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    NAME AND ADDRESS
Page 2
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 10th Aug 17, 8:43 AM
    • 251 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    bluetoffee1878
    Thank you TD.

    No confidentiality clause in force to the best of my knowledge
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Aug 17, 9:11 AM
    • 7,412 Posts
    • 6,459 Thanks
    The Deep
    Then the obvious question is, how much did you screw out of them?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 10th Aug 17, 9:43 AM
    • 251 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    bluetoffee1878
    TD it's in post #19

    £201.56 and unlike their claim, these were actual or genuine estimated costs. This was me helping a colleague of Mrs Bluetoffee with the support on here from the usual suspects.

    I got a nice bottle of Malbec from the grateful defendant which was more than enough gratitude.
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 13th Aug 17, 11:23 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Thank you guys.
    The notice of hearing does give a hearing date but is just a single page document which only states the following:
    "TAKE NOTICE that an Allocation Hearing will take place on
    (Date and time)
    at (court name and address)
    When you should attend.
    45 minutes has been allowed for the hearing.
    The purpose of the hearing is to consider the issues raised in the defence.
    please note: this case may be released to another Judge, possibly at a different court"

    There were no other details at all. I think I might give the court a call to check the date for submission of paperwork.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Aug 17, 4:45 PM
    • 51,687 Posts
    • 65,339 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Oh, an 'Allocation Hearing' sounds like a preliminary one, to run through your defence (sounds like the court think you have a case, and you do, because you are not liable). See what others say, and clarify with the local court, if unsure.

    Even if no WS is needed at this stage, take relevant evidence supporting your defence to this initial hearing, like your proof of earnings/travel and proof of the insurance document which names more than one driver (and any proof of you not being the driver, e.g. if you were at work or away that day).

    And take a copy of the NTK, and a printout of Schedule 4, to show absolutely that their NTK is NOT a POFA one, and that they cannot hold a keeper liable in law. The Judge may not be familiar with this at all and will need walking through para 8 or 9, if not.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 13-08-2017 at 4:47 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 13th Aug 17, 5:09 PM
    • 734 Posts
    • 1,360 Thanks
    Johnersh
    It's allocation. It's not the final hearing. It's to do with preliminary points like standing to bring the claim in the first place and disclosure/further questions that are unanswered.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Aug 17, 5:20 PM
    • 51,687 Posts
    • 65,339 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    As I thought. Wasn't sure how much ground will be covered in 45 mins.

    Johnersh, presumably the Judge might ask the OP questions about their defence (how many drivers insured) and could actually strike out the claim on the spot, for poor particulars and no cause of action?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 13th Aug 17, 9:30 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Thanks for the clarification. I'll get the relevant paperwork together as you suggest. I think I'll check with the court regarding witness statement etc. And will, of course, provide any updates when I know any more!
    Do you think that CEL will have been requested to attend too? Or is it more just for me to outline the defence points without the claimant being in attendance?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Aug 17, 9:57 PM
    • 51,687 Posts
    • 65,339 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I expect they have been sent a copy too.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 13th Aug 17, 11:26 PM
    • 734 Posts
    • 1,360 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Prepare and prepare well, the court has wide case management powers.

    Prepare as though it was trial. It's possible that the case could be thrown out, if you can convince the court (and they are minded to). But go in expecting a further hearing so you're not disappointed if that happens.
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 4th Dec 17, 4:52 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Update
    Update on this case....
    CEL did send a representative to the hearing but they were not well prepared and couldn't answer many of the judges questions (such as whether CEL are relying on POFA for this case). The CEL representative pointed out that I'd used a defence template off the internet (as if that isn't allowed). The judge didn't seem impressed with them, and even asked if they'd read my defence!
    So the case was tracked to a civil hearing and the court ordered the claimant to provide me with several pieces of information by a set date- which they have not done.
    I called the court and explained that the claimant hadn't provided me with the necessary information and asked if the hearing will still be taking place. They said it will.
    I submitted my documents and witness statement in time but have received nothing from CEL.
    I'm obviously going to point this all out to the judge on the day of the hearing.
    Any additional advice?
    Should I submit a skeleton argument before the hearing?
    Thanks
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 4th Dec 17, 5:05 PM
    • 734 Posts
    • 1,360 Thanks
    Johnersh
    More info please. You've now been allocated to the local county court, presumably.

    1. When is the hearing (trial)?
    2. What docs were ordered by way of disclosure?
    3. What docs are still outstanding (disclosure, statements or both?)
    4. Have you chased up the claimant?

    May need to consider writing to the judge on this to avoid being ambushed by a claimant attempting to rely on documents not previously provided.
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 4th Dec 17, 6:02 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Yes it's been allocated to the small claims track at the local court. The hearing is later this week.
    It was ordered for the claimant to ...

    1. Write to the court and the defendant with confirmation of whether or not they intend to rely on the POFA 2012.

    2. File and serve answers to the questions the defendant asked in her email and provide the defendant with the photographs requested (if any exist).

    3. File and serve on the defendant a breakdown of the sum claimed.

    Then ordered all parties to:
    4. File and serve copies of all documents upon which they intend to rely at the hearing.

    5. File and serve witness statements.
    The deadlines for these have long passed and I've received nothing.

    I have not contacted the defendant to request the information. Do I now need to do that?
    Thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Dec 17, 6:04 PM
    • 15,880 Posts
    • 24,619 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I have not contacted the defendant to request the information
    Aren’t you the defendant?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 4th Dec 17, 6:04 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Sorry. Meant to write "claimant" rather than "defendant" in the last paragraph above!
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 4th Dec 17, 9:30 PM
    • 734 Posts
    • 1,360 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Have you filed your court bundle?

    I know they're in default, but you seem quite chilled out about everything.

    I'd definitely get a skeleton done and lodged and a costs schedule of my own (because it it were me I'd be claiming time off work etc).

    A skelly can be used both to precis your arguments but also to flag the default and the fact that it has prejudiced your ability to understand clearly the case you have to answer.
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 4th Dec 17, 9:53 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Thank you. Yes I posted my bundle on time, and have drafted some of my skeleton argument, which I'll serve before the hearing based on advice here.
    I'm not really chilled! I'm very nervous about defending myself in court but I'm confident in my defence. Just not confident with the court experience itself....
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 6th Dec 17, 7:49 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Getting nervous before the hearing tomorrow.
    I'm worried that I haven't seen the claimant's case at all (other than the particulars of claim).

    Will I get chance to say this to the judge before the hearing commences? Or will I wait until my turn to speak in the hearing?
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 6th Dec 17, 7:56 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Getting nervous before the hearing tomorrow.
    I'm worried that I haven't seen the claimant's case at all (other than the particulars of claim).

    Will I get chance to say this to the judge before the hearing commences? Or will I wait until my turn to speak in the hearing?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Dec 17, 9:41 PM
    • 15,880 Posts
    • 24,619 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    While I’m no court expert, I think you need to judge (no pun intended) to the situation when you enter the courtroom. But you do need to get it in whenever the earliest opportunity presents itself.

    You will report to a court official when you arrive to book in. Ask if they can give you any advice on how/when to broach the issue in the courtroom.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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