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  • FIRST POST
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 19th Apr 17, 2:18 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Civil enforcement limited claim form received
    • #1
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:18 PM
    Civil enforcement limited claim form received 19th Apr 17 at 2:18 PM
    Hi.

    I've recently received a claim form from County court business centre following a PCN from CEL now totalling £322.90. The original invoice was for £100, which (having read through lots of newbie advice on these forums) I now know that I was stupid to ignore.
    I received debt collector letter which referred to a PCN of £140 ?? The car was only in the car park for 20 minutes but no ticket was purchased.

    I have acknowledged service on the MCOL website and am going to prepare my defence. I now only have until 5th May to provide a defence. I'm in a bit of a panic and even though I've read through so much online i still would really appreciate some specific advice.

    For information, I am the registered keeper but was not the driver and can potentially prove that with a letter from my work. I haven't received a NTK.

    Please can someone confirm whether I am too late to write to CEL with the following questions?

    Re PCN number: xxxxxxxx

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are the the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that were in place on the 19 August 2016 which specified the parking rules.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle on 19 August 2016.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and was sufficiently calibrated.
    6. Please confirm whether the Parking charge notice was a notice to the driver or the registered keeper.

    I deny liability for any sum at all. I will keep a copy of this email and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    NAME AND ADDRESS
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Apr 17, 2:29 PM
    • 15,502 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:29 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Apr 17, 2:29 PM
    by all means ask the questions as a part 18 type letter , but assume they will ignore it so dont rely on getting anything back

    but still acknowledge the claim and start drafting your defence based on recent examples on here and on pepipoo forums

    read post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread too
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 19th Apr 17, 3:31 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    • #3
    • 19th Apr 17, 3:31 PM
    • #3
    • 19th Apr 17, 3:31 PM
    Thanks.

    Having read more examples, I now also think that the PCN/NTK is not POFA compliant as it was served almost a month after the parking incident, and doesn't include some of the necessary wording​ as specified in POFA.

    So that might be my main defence. Would that be enough along with the fact that I wasn't the driver?

    Would it be worth writing to CEL to point to this out now (although it sounds like they'd ignore it)? Or should I just wait to submit it as my defence?

    Thanks again for anyone who can help.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Apr 17, 4:00 PM
    • 15,502 Posts
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    Redx
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 4:00 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 4:00 PM
    gather ALL legal points and include them in your defence

    and as before , ask the PPC to clarify the points you have raised like NTK, paperwork and suchlike (gather evidence and particulars of claim)

    your task now is to prepare your defence and submit it within the 28 days from the date of claim on the MCOL , nothing else matters because they have started the court proceedings and paid the initial court charge
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 19th Apr 17, 4:17 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 4:17 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 4:17 PM
    Ok, thanks again, your comments are really helpful for me.

    I'll email CEL with my questions today, then will do more research and draft my defence. I will post it on this forum before I submit it formally. Not only will it help me to receive comments, it may be helpful for others in the same boat!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 17, 4:27 PM
    • 50,024 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 4:27 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 4:27 PM
    Ok, thanks again, your comments are really helpful for me.

    I'll email CEL with my questions today, then will do more research and draft my defence. I will post it on this forum before I submit it formally. Not only will it help me to receive comments, it may be helpful for others in the same boat!
    Originally posted by Stuck2017
    You will find loads of CEL defences already written on here, all are discontinued, no hearings. This is relatively easy and you are lucky it is CEL.

    To find shedloads of (fairly generic but effective) defences written already for you to crib from, search this parking forum (not MSE itself) for 'CEL defence' as well as doing the AOS on MCOL as described in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread (all about court defence stage).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 23rd Apr 17, 6:50 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    • #7
    • 23rd Apr 17, 6:50 AM
    Draft defence. Comments appreciated.
    • #7
    • 23rd Apr 17, 6:50 AM
    I've finally drafted my first version of a defence. I have a couple of questions which I've put in capital letters within the text below. Any comments or suggestions would be welcomed. .........

    In the County Court Business Centre
    Claim Number ****
    Between:
    Civil Enforcement Limited v ******
    Defence Statement

    I am ******* the defendant in this matter and registered keeper of vehicle *****. I currently reside at ***.

    I deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim for each and every one of the following reasons:

    1. The Claim Form issued on the xxxxxx 2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under the Practice Direction nor has the Claimant complied with pre-court protocol:
    The Claim form is not signed by the Claimant’s Legal Representative as stated and therefore isn't a Statement of Truth. (IS THIS STILL CORRECT IF THEY SENT A SIGNED STATEMENT OF TRUTH ALONG WITH DETAILS OF THE CLAIM SEPARATELY FROM THE CLAIM FORM?)
    The vague Particulars of Claim (which were sent separately) disclose no clear cause of action nor sufficient detail.The defendant has requested further details from the claimant and has not yet received a response.
    The due date of the £236 debt listed on the claim form is listed as 19/8/16, but the debt did not exist on that date as the PCN was not issued until 15/9/16.

    2. There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’ under the Practice Direction. Several details required by the practice direction were not included in this letter. (DO I NEED TO LIST ALL THE DEFICIENCIES HERE??)

    3. I was not the driver on the day of the parking event, the driver has not been evidenced and I put the Claimant to strict proof that it issued a compliant notice under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA). Such a notice was not served within 14 days of the parking event and when the notice was served, did not fully comply with statutory wording. The Claimant is therefore unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    Henry Greenslade, lead adjudicator of POPLA in 2015 and an eminent barrister and parking law expert stated that “However keeper information is obtained, there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.”


    4. No standing:
    (a) There is/was no compliant landowner contract. It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. (DO I INCLUDE THIS IF I DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN? IVE ASKED CEL FOR DETAILS BUT RECEIVED NOTHING) As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.
    (b) The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    5. Schedule 4 of POFA states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when neither the signs, nor the parking charge notice mentioned a possible £236 for outstanding debt and damages.

    6. Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver :
    (a) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    (b) Non existent ANPR 'data use' signage - breach of ICO rules and the BPA Codes of Practice.

    7. The claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. I challenge the claimed amount of £322.90. a) The​ particulars of claim dated 1st December 2016 are templates, so it is not credible that £50 legal costs were incurred.
    b) I put the Claimant to strict proof and of the additional £60 allegedly paid to ZZPS. I deny the Claimant is entitled to any interest whatsoever.
    c) Wright Hassall was appointed by ZZPS not CEL, and I put to the claimant for strict proof of the £36 allegedly paid to Wright Hassall.

    8. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Point 6 above, explains why strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice signage has not been met by the defendant. No contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.

    The court is invited to strike out the claim for failure to include a valid Statement of Truth ( IS THIS THE CASE IF THE DEFENDANT SENT A SIGNED STATEMENT OF TRUTH AS A SEPARATE DOCUMENT FROM THE CLAIM FORM???) , failure to include a cause of action or order particulars that comply with Practice Directions.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence Statement are true.

    Signed
    Date
    ------------------------------
    Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Apr 17, 1:10 PM
    • 50,024 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 23rd Apr 17, 1:10 PM
    • #8
    • 23rd Apr 17, 1:10 PM
    The Claim form is not signed by the Claimant’s Legal Representative as stated and therefore isn't a Statement of Truth. (IS THIS STILL CORRECT IF THEY SENT A SIGNED STATEMENT OF TRUTH ALONG WITH DETAILS OF THE CLAIM SEPARATELY FROM THE CLAIM FORM?)
    I would just change it to:

    The Claim form is not signed by the Claimant’s Legal Representative nor a named employee/Director, nor any legal person.

    Never acknowledge that this unwarranted charge is a 'debt':

    The due date of the purported £236 debt sum listed on the claim form is listed as 19/8/16, but the alleged/denied debt did not exist on that date as the PCN was not issued until 15/9/16 and was for £100.
    2. There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’ under the Practice Direction. Several details required by the practice direction were not included in this letter. (DO I NEED TO LIST ALL THE DEFICIENCIES HERE??)
    I wouldn't bother.

    I would make #3 stronger because this is a killer blow:

    3.1 I was not the driver on the day of the parking event and this claimant cannot hold me liable under any applicable rule of law.

    3.2 The driver has not been evidenced and I put the Claimant to strict proof that it issued a compliant notice under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA).

    3.3 Such a notice was not served within 14 days of the parking event and when the notice was served, did not fully comply with statutory wording. The Claimant is therefore unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    3.4 Henry Greenslade, lead adjudicator of POPLA in 2015 and an eminent barrister and parking law expert, stated that “However keeper information is obtained, there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.”

    3.5 Therefore, since I was not the driver, this Claimant has no basis of liability against me nor cause of action and the Court is invited to use discretion to strike this case out or put the Claimant to strict proof of their cause of action against a registered keeper.
    And here I would remind the court that a main difference is you were not the Driver:

    8. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Point 6 above, explains why strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice signage has not been met by the defendant. No contract was formed to pay any clearly stated sum. In the Supreme Court case Mr Beavis was the admitted driver. Crucially, unlike in Beavis, I was not the driver in this case and so there is an absence of any liability and a failure to establish any cause of action.
    4. No standing:
    (a) There is/was no compliant landowner contract. It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. (DO I INCLUDE THIS IF I DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN? IVE ASKED CEL FOR DETAILS BUT RECEIVED NOTHING)
    Yes. Any claim is the burden of the claimant to prove.

    The court is invited to strike out the claim for failure to include a valid Statement of Truth ( IS THIS THE CASE IF THE DEFENDANT SENT A SIGNED STATEMENT OF TRUTH AS A SEPARATE DOCUMENT FROM THE CLAIM FORM???) , failure to include a cause of action or order particulars that comply with Practice Directions.
    I would remove the above because I've already suggested the Court might use its discretion to strike out, earlier on above. Don't push the point twice and it's better aligned to the fact that you simply are not liable in law.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 23rd Apr 17, 1:16 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    • #9
    • 23rd Apr 17, 1:16 PM
    • #9
    • 23rd Apr 17, 1:16 PM
    Thank you Coupon mad. Your time and advice is MUCH appreciated, and I'll ensure that I make the suggested changes to my defence statement.

    I'll keep you all posted on what happens next.
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 2nd Jul 17, 11:37 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Small claims direction questionnaire received
    Hi. Just an update on my case. I submitted my defense and it went quiet for a couple of months. I've now received a small claims directions questionnaire (N180).
    I'm going to complete this and send it back to the court using the advice that is already available on this forum.
    Does the receipt of the form suggest that this case will be heard in court?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Jul 17, 12:46 PM
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    Redx
    no , it does not suggest that at all, its simply the next part of the court process

    once done , a local court is allocated , possibly a judge too, then a lot of other hurdles are overcome BEFORE a court hearing date and time and judge are set

    I think the claimant may have to pay a certain fee before it goes even further (a filing fee ?) - even after that they may well discontinue at some point prior to the actual court date

    so even then there is no suggestion that a court hearing appearance will actually be made (yes it might go all the way , but we have seen a discontinuance issued many times prior to the court hearing , seen a few that have been discontinued just this last week (like a MINSTER BAYWATCH one)

    plan for it , but never assume it will go all the way , but have all your ducks in a row in case it actually does go all the way to an actual court hearing
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jul 17, 12:52 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Same in every case, just read other CEL threads:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72776586#post72776586
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 2nd Jul 17, 7:29 PM
    • 32,780 Posts
    • 16,805 Thanks
    Quentin
    I've also received the questionnaire.
    Originally posted by DPB
    You need to keep to your own thread
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 5th Aug 17, 11:34 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    An update on this one.. I've recently received the Notice of Hearing form my local county court today .
    Feeling nervous about representing myself in court ����, but am confident with my defence points so I'm going to take them on!! Money grabbing chancers.
    Even if by some chance they win in court, I'm in such a poor financial situation I'm sure they'll only be getting their money in drizzles of £1 per month anyway. Theres no way I can afford to pay their inflated "fine".

    If it goes to court and I win, can I still counter claim for having to take time off work?

    Thanks
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 5th Aug 17, 1:33 PM
    • 32,780 Posts
    • 16,805 Thanks
    Quentin
    If you were to lose, then bear in mind that unless you pay the judgement off in full within a month it will stay on the register for 6 years even if you pay it off subsequently. This may be of some concern if you need anything at all on credit or involving a credit check.

    You don't need to counterclaim for your lost earnings. Be ready to ask the judge for your expenses attending court after you win!
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 5th Aug 17, 3:11 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Wow, really? Thanks for pointing that out. That would be incredibly unjust seeing as though I wasn't even in the car that day!
    Fact is I couldn't pay it all in one go so if they win, it'll affect me more than just one day in court.
    I guess this will make me even more determined
    • Stuck2017
    • By Stuck2017 9th Aug 17, 9:24 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Stuck2017
    Notice of hearing
    Hi again, I've got another question about my case that I hope someone can help with. I've received the notice of hearing from my local court. Will they send out further details of when to submit my witness statement etc, or do I take the initiative and so this myself ( thanks to these threads I've established that I need to submit this at least 14 days before the hearing).
    Also, I'm preparing to list my expenses (if I win). How many hours is considered as reasonable for researching my case? I've spent many hours so far, and I'm sure many more to come before the court date!
    Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 10th Aug 17, 3:20 AM
    • 497 Posts
    • 591 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Does the notice of hearing give a hearing date? If so, what is that hearing date?
    Have you read ALL of the notice thoroughly? If it gives a hearing date, then it WILL state probably around para 5 or 6ish when documents must be exchanged between ALL parties (court and claimant) - documents are your Witness Statement and any evidnce such as photos etc. You uniquely reference EVERY piece of evidnce, and your WS refers to this e.g. INITIALS/001 - a photo showing...
    ---------------------------------------

    They're not expenses, they're called "costs"

    Costs are strictly limited in small claims. You can always claim ordinary costs, such as time off work OR loss of holiday entitlement, up to half a day, capped at £95. Take proof of loss of earnigns OR loss of holiday with you. YOu can also claim for parking, and travel at 45p per mile for car, public transport (2nd class rail) at cost.

    If you are looking to claim your time, then you may struggle. The entire point of small claims is that each side bears the majority of their own costs. You would really need to show the claimant has behaved Unreasonably under rule CPR27.14(g)(2) to access a greater costs order - so you need to do some research into HOW this is defeined, and list actual instances where they were unreasonable. If the judge findds for this - you do this AFTER discussing yoru normal costs!!!!!!!!!! - then you can go for time at say £19 per hour, OR try for 50% of a band D fee earner which is £60 per hour. The latter is brave, but some courts will entertain it - after all, it is supposed to be punitive (as they behaved unreasonably) ie its supposed to really hurt the claimant for behaving like a d**k
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 10th Aug 17, 7:14 AM
    • 217 Posts
    • 393 Thanks
    bluetoffee1878
    This was from 2015, but it was how we claimed costs from D.E.A.L who were basically Civil Enforcement at that time. They did not show up in court, we did turn up and found out that they had emailed a discontinuance late afternoon the previous day.

    This is the letter we sent to the court with some help from a poster on legal beagles.

    In the County Court at Liverpool

    Urgent Matter - to be referred to Procedural Judge.

    In the matter of

    Debt Enforcement and Action Limited v Miss X
    Claim Number XXXXXXXX


    Dear Sir or Madam,

    I attended Court on 25/3/15 for the hearing scheduled for 11:30am on that date. On checking in with the Court Usher, I was informed that the case had “already been settled”. Further inquiries revealed that the Claimant had sent an email to the Court at 15:40 the previous day (24/3/15), stating that they “wished to discontinue proceedings for the claim”. I was also informed by the Court official that an earlier case involving the same Claimant had also been discontinued ‘at the last minute’
    I as the Defendant in this matter had received no notice from the Claimant that they were going to discontinue. In fact, this Defendant has at no point during the course of this claim complied with any of the requirements. They did not serve their directions questionnaire, they failed to acknowledge or reply to a part 18 request and they did not serve on me their witness statement.

    CPR r.38.6 states that the claimant is liable for the defendant's costs after discontinuance (r.38.6(1)) but that this does not apply to claims allocated to the small claims track (r.38.6(3)). However, the white book states (annotation 38.6.1): "Note that the normal rule as to costs does not apply if a claimant in a case allocated to the small claims track serves a notice of discontinuance although it might be contended that costs should be awarded if a party has behaved unreasonably (r.27.14(2)(d))." I believe it should actually refer to r.27.14(2)(g) as that is the rule which allows the court to award costs for unreasonable behaviour.

    On this basis I would like to request a costs order to be made against the Claimant given that DEAL has behaved unreasonably by discontinuing this claim, and also by not submitting any evidence/witness statement in support of their claim other than their claim form, and by not serving me with a copy of their Directions Questionnaire contrary to the court order.

    The Defendant had significant costs to prepare the Defence and prepare attendance of the hearing and the costs claimed are as follows:

    Schedule of costs

    Research and preparation of defence as litigant in person @£18 per hour, (N.B. I think this is £19 now)
    6 hours. Total £108.

    Printing of 3 copies of witness statement and skeleton argument and postage
    Estimate £25.

    One day off work to attend hearing on 25/3/15 @£12 per hour X 5 hours
    £60

    Mileage driven to attend court and return on 25/3/15
    14.8 miles @ £0.45 per mile
    £6.66

    Car parking on day of hearing on 25/3/15
    £1.90

    Total costs claimed £201.56


    Yours faithfully,

    After sending this, the court ordered them to pay or file and serve their objections (which they did not) A cheque was subsequently received.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Aug 17, 7:44 AM
    • 7,004 Posts
    • 6,074 Thanks
    The Deep
    An excellent letter. Did you sign a confidentiality clause?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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