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  • FIRST POST
    • johnD17
    • By johnD17 19th Apr 17, 9:56 AM
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    johnD17
    Probate & IHT Initial Questions
    • #1
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:56 AM
    Probate & IHT Initial Questions 19th Apr 17 at 9:56 AM
    Hi All.


    After a nightmare couple of months, I still haven't had the 'proper' death certificate, to register my dad's sudden death as yet. After numerous calls to the coroner (now transferred) I hope to get an update this afternoon.


    I've not been sure what to do - regards accounts etc. so I haven't done anything as yet.


    I'm doing everything on behalf of my Mum as she doesn't have a clue about these kind of thigns, and my dad did it all.


    I'm quite worried about the whole probate and IHT situation - and will probably have a lot of questions when I get into it but:


    1. What happens to any incomings/outgoings post death (from his account)


    2. Are funeral costs deducted from the estate PRE or POST estate evaluation/ IHT numbers? What happens where me and my mum have had to pay.


    3. What happens to the joint account (if my mum already has a sole account with the provider) - Can this move to a joint account with me instead?


    4. Regards the 'gift' rule of within 7 years - this is going to be very difficult to ascertain. I want to I) be as accurate as I can but also II) not go into too much depth in exploring but also iii) ensuring if there is IHT, it can be minimised. (One example is my dad gave me some money a few years ago for help with a house. Some of this money was in my name anyway (bonds setup when I was a baby) but some wasn;t - I have no idea to find out how much was in his name, other than ringing up an old bank account from 3 years ago, getting my online details again and seeing if they could provide details on the original deposits - but I doubt this would show up online?


    5. Are gifts to partners (not married) exempt? i.e. mum and dad weren't married. Will has tenenancy in common for their house. (My dad put money in his account and then transferred to my mum c. a year ago)
    Item 4 is probably the most stressful and I'll have questions linked on when I can move forward.
Page 1
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 19th Apr 17, 10:30 AM
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #2
    • 19th Apr 17, 10:30 AM
    • #2
    • 19th Apr 17, 10:30 AM
    1. The bank should have been notified of the death and the account would have been frozen so no payments in or out.

    2.Funeral cost is a debt of the estate so is deductd. Whoever claimed can recover thcost from the estate.

    3. If your mother had a joint account with your father then that now belongs to her. Have the bank been notified?

    4. Unless the eatate is over the IHT limit the gifts don't really matter. Bonds set up when you were a child don't count as they were more than 7 years ago.

    5. Gifts to unmarried partners are not exempt.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 19-04-2017 at 1:47 PM.
    • johnD17
    • By johnD17 19th Apr 17, 11:15 AM
    • 17 Posts
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    johnD17
    • #3
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:15 AM
    • #3
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:15 AM
    Thanks Coroner now tells me i should have been doing all of this with interim death certificate

    Gifts - these would take it over the limit if I'm including money paid in by my dad and then moved to my mum's account (same bank) (i think) parents not being married and overseas property in his name is the issue.

    What happens with a bond that may mature (doesn't say when) i hope they don't get out of paying interest
    • johnD17
    • By johnD17 19th Apr 17, 11:16 AM
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    johnD17
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:16 AM
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:16 AM
    Re point 4 i get the bonds in my name don't count but i can't ascertain how much was actually in his name at the time, that were cashed in and then used by me
    • johnD17
    • By johnD17 19th Apr 17, 11:18 AM
    • 17 Posts
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    johnD17
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:18 AM
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:18 AM
    I don't want to spend more days investigating, trying to pull records speaking to departments etc to actually do the tax man's job for them.
    • Brighty
    • By Brighty 19th Apr 17, 11:25 AM
    • 589 Posts
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    Brighty
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:25 AM
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:25 AM
    I dealt with all my dads accounts and probate etc with just the interim death cert, in fact i never got round to paying for the full cert, should probably get one at some point
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 19th Apr 17, 11:38 AM
    • 2,153 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #7
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:38 AM
    • #7
    • 19th Apr 17, 11:38 AM
    I don't want to spend more days investigating, trying to pull records speaking to departments etc to actually do the tax man's job for them.
    Originally posted by johnD17
    It IS the executor's job to make sure that the figures are as complete and accurate as possible. You risk heavy penalties if you get it wrong. I can understand it may be difficult, but it has to be done.
    • johnD17
    • By johnD17 19th Apr 17, 12:24 PM
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    johnD17
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 17, 12:24 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 17, 12:24 PM
    With due respect, it takes a coroner 6 weeks to not do much at all.


    Please advise on how I am suppose to ascertain where money came from 3 years ago, from accounts that no longer exist, to an account that I have no details for. Best case:


    1. I ring the bank, reset my online details, gain access, check back 3 years ago, and see payments as DEBIT XK.
    2. This transaction will show as paid in by ME, in my name.


    I don't think the Bank will 1) be able to or 2) oblige a request to dig into the original deposit and where this would come from.


    I have no idea where the money came from. It may have been cashed in premium bonds.


    I'm sure as many MSE's can appreciate, people have multiple accounts (I'm sure I;ve had about 20 accounts over the last 3 years, only c. 3 that I use).


    My experience of pretty much any organisations call department is less than dire. Nothing is ever simple, and menial tasks take weeks and there is usually a fcuk up on the way. So no idea how I would ascertain original sources of funds from somebody that is deceased.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 19th Apr 17, 12:54 PM
    • 2,153 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 12:54 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 12:54 PM
    With due respect, it takes a coroner 6 weeks to not do much at all.


    Please advise on how I am suppose to ascertain where money came from 3 years ago, from accounts that no longer exist, to an account that I have no details for. Best case:


    1. I ring the bank, reset my online details, gain access, check back 3 years ago, and see payments as DEBIT XK.
    2. This transaction will show as paid in by ME, in my name.


    I don't think the Bank will 1) be able to or 2) oblige a request to dig into the original deposit and where this would come from.


    I have no idea where the money came from. It may have been cashed in premium bonds.


    I'm sure as many MSE's can appreciate, people have multiple accounts (I'm sure I;ve had about 20 accounts over the last 3 years, only c. 3 that I use).


    My experience of pretty much any organisations call department is less than dire. Nothing is ever simple, and menial tasks take weeks and there is usually a fcuk up on the way. So no idea how I would ascertain original sources of funds from somebody that is deceased.
    Originally posted by johnD17
    Is the estate likely to be enough for IHT to be paid? If not then it is a non problem. If it is then the executor, is legally responsible for obtaining the necessary figures. Banks hold records going back at least six years.so you need to ask them. It may be difficult, time consuming and frustrating but that does not remove the executor's liability to do the job.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th Apr 17, 1:45 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    You have the added problem of a foreign property to deal with. Did he have a seperate will covering that? If not it is likely that the intestacy rules of that country will apply.

    Trying to wind up an estate where the deceased had not kept a decent set of financial records for their executors can be a nightmare, but unfortunately for you, the executors are the only people responsible for sorting out whatever mess is left.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th Apr 17, 1:55 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    Although the horse has bolted as far as your father is concerned, make sure your mother does not leave you with similar problems, and make sure you keep a copy of your relative financial records with your will to keep things simple for your executors.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 19th Apr 17, 1:59 PM
    • 2,153 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    You have the added problem of a foreign property to deal with. Did he have a seperate will covering that? If not it is likely that the intestacy rules of that country will apply.

    Trying to wind up an estate where the deceased had not kept a decent set of financial records for their executors can be a nightmare, but unfortunately for you, the executors are the only people responsible for sorting out whatever mess is left.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    Reference to overseas property which country is it in? If there is no will for assets in that country then the foreign intestacy laws will apply. You will need the services of a lawyer in that country or of a U.K. Solicitor that is also qualified there.
    • johnD17
    • By johnD17 19th Apr 17, 5:38 PM
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    johnD17
    Hi All - my dad left comprehensive financial records.


    My detailed question is more around what mix of funds from 3 years ago were in my name vs. his name. I'm not sure anybody would keep such a record.


    I've no doubt banks have records - but will MY bank show WHERE/WHO the deposit came from? I'm not sure if it wouldn't have been cashed in to HIS account (of which bank account I don't know) and then transferred over to me. So many questions, so many accounts, I wouldn't no where to start.


    I can cash in XK of YOUR premium bonds today, to my bank account. It will just show as DEPOSIT JOHND17, rather than the origin of the funds.


    Re foreign property - Cyprus, yes a will was made there and leaves it entirely to me (not my mum as per UK will).


    I don't imagine there will be similar issues with my Mum as the very fact it may go over is due to property/savings in purely his name (unless the taxpayer usually taxes things THREE TIMES, which I don't doubt).


    I've just seen a new 16/17 tax piece around main residency, taking the allocation up to £100k. Not sure if this applies, but will research.


    Thanks for your help by the way - frustration isn't directed towards anybody here!
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th Apr 17, 6:14 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    The primary residential relief will not help as that only kicked in on the 6th April, and it seems your father died in February. Unfortunately your mother cannot benefit from his allowance as they were not married.

    By comprehensive financial records, I mean 7 years of records of gifts to his children and, again as they were not married, your mother. Any other IHT planning actions taken should also be documented.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 19th Apr 17, 8:36 PM
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    getmore4less
    Sometimes you have to step back and realize it migth take time to find the info you need.

    there may not be easy answers to some things and it may take multiple inquiries when something you try does not work.

    over time you build up the complete picture like a jigsaw.

    It might just need 7 years of statements, banks should have 6 years worth.

    the answers won't happen overnight, this could take a few weeks/months.

    your records could be a waste of time you probably need to start collecting dads picture over the last 7years.

    how old were you when your "bonds" were cashed in, if really in your name then unusual for then to be cashable by someone else if over 16/18 surethey were not in a trust.

    I found MSmoney a very good tool to build a financial history of someone and collect the info needed for tax returns and the IHT forms. .
    • johnD17
    • By johnD17 19th Apr 17, 10:00 PM
    • 17 Posts
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    johnD17
    He passed in March. Not registered as yet.

    Re the new law, i don't understand it as it references decendents rather than partners - it's confusing, i need official advice. I wonder if as my mum and me are both executors whether the home moving to me would benefit from the allowance. Would be even worse luck if it did, but wouldn't apply as it came in April.

    Re the several months - i don't know anyone that has taking this long for probate. Accounts will all be frozen, with my mum needing access, not least for funeral costs etc.

    I don't know what account he would have originally cashed in to so no clue where to start.

    The only help would be internet banking but i only signed up for this for his latest account recently (which i know isn't strictly allowed). So not sure how i get 3 year old transactions from a bank account he may have closed.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 19th Apr 17, 10:17 PM
    • 2,153 Posts
    • 1,749 Thanks
    Yorkshireman99
    He passed in March. Not registered as yet.

    Re the new law, i don't understand it as it references decendents rather than partners - it's confusing, i need official advice. I wonder if as my mum and me are both executors whether the home moving to me would benefit from the allowance. Would be even worse luck if it did, but wouldn't apply as it came in April.

    Re the several months - i don't know anyone that has taking this long for probate. Accounts will all be frozen, with my mum needing access, not least for funeral costs etc.

    I don't know what account he would have originally cashed in to so no clue where to start.

    The only help would be internet banking but i only signed up for this for his latest account recently (which i know isn't strictly allowed). So not sure how i get 3 year old transactions from a bank account he may have closed.
    Originally posted by johnD17
    The extra IHT allowance only applies to blood descendents and nobody else. They only apply to deaths since your father died so has no relevance to you. Details of the IHT allowances are here

    https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/overview

    Banks will usually pay the funeral costs direct to the undertaker if you present the bill.

    It is a criminal offence to access the deceased's account online in the way you have. If you have not told the bank of the death they may not be too keen to help you.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 19-04-2017 at 10:23 PM.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th Apr 17, 11:20 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    He passed in March. Not registered as yet.

    Re the new law, i don't understand it as it references decendents rather than partners - it's confusing, i need official advice. I wonder if as my mum and me are both executors whether the home moving to me would benefit from the allowance. Would be even worse luck if it did, but wouldn't apply as it came in April.
    .
    Originally posted by johnD17
    If your parents had been married, although the new nil rate band could not have been used against his estate, it could have been transfered to your mother's on her death, potentially saving £40,000 in IHT or more. For unmarried partners however it can't be transfered so is lost for ever.

    If you father has transfered assets to you in one form or another surely you don't need the details of where it has come from, but where it resides now.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 20th Apr 17, 8:42 AM
    • 28,003 Posts
    • 16,786 Thanks
    getmore4less
    He passed in March. Not registered as yet.

    Re the new law, i don't understand it as it references decendents rather than partners - it's confusing, i need official advice. I wonder if as my mum and me are both executors whether the home moving to me would benefit from the allowance. Would be even worse luck if it did, but wouldn't apply as it came in April.

    Re the several months - i don't know anyone that has taking this long for probate. Accounts will all be frozen, with my mum needing access, not least for funeral costs etc.

    I don't know what account he would have originally cashed in to so no clue where to start.

    The only help would be internet banking but i only signed up for this for his latest account recently (which i know isn't strictly allowed). So not sure how i get 3 year old transactions from a bank account he may have closed.
    Originally posted by johnD17
    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inheritance-tax-residence-nil-rate-band

    THE KEY PART
    Basic rules
    An estate will be entitled to the RNRB if the:

    individual dies on or after 6 April 2017
    For account statements, balance at DOD, interest accrued etc. you deal with all institutions in writing requesting the information you need.

    The letter ping-pong can take weeks to get what you need sometimes if you don't have details like account numbers and have to request them first.
    Last edited by getmore4less; 20-04-2017 at 8:47 AM.
    • johnD17
    • By johnD17 21st Apr 17, 10:16 PM
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    johnD17
    Cheers for the scare tactics re online access : bothered ! I'm going through enough. Lock me up.

    Ok so the allowance isn't valid but i was trying to understand it (pasting the unclear laws from law makers doesn't make it easier to understand) why does it reference decedent's and not partners? If it's blood relatives then that takes me but another piece of amazing luck it comes in 4 weeks after...
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