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  • FIRST POST
    • sausage_time
    • By sausage_time 18th Apr 17, 8:23 PM
    • 29Posts
    • 8Thanks
    sausage_time
    Shares in sole name treated as joint for CGT?
    • #1
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:23 PM
    Shares in sole name treated as joint for CGT? 18th Apr 17 at 8:23 PM
    I need to sell some shares in my sole name quickly, but just realised that this will tip me over CGT limit. Is there a way I can assert that my spouse can share the gain (because in reality she is a beneficiary of the proceeds - that will end up in our joint account). I won't have time to do the paperwork to transfer them, so this will have to be a paper exercise. Any pointers!
Page 1
    • Credit-Crunched
    • By Credit-Crunched 18th Apr 17, 8:29 PM
    • 2,021 Posts
    • 3,929 Thanks
    Credit-Crunched
    • #2
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:29 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:29 PM
    I need to sell some shares in my sole name quickly, but just realised that this will tip me over CGT limit. Is there a way I can assert that my spouse can share the gain (because in reality she is a beneficiary of the proceeds - that will end up in our joint account). I won't have time to do the paperwork to transfer them, so this will have to be a paper exercise. Any pointers!
    Originally posted by sausage_time
    Sadly no, even transfer to wife's names would trigger a CGT issue. If only youd have done this a few weeks ago!
    • IanManc
    • By IanManc 18th Apr 17, 8:41 PM
    • 262 Posts
    • 388 Thanks
    IanManc
    • #3
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:41 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:41 PM
    Sadly no, even transfer to wife's names would trigger a CGT issue. If only youd have done this a few weeks ago!
    Originally posted by Credit-Crunched
    The gov.uk website says:

    You donít pay Capital Gains Tax on assets you give or sell to your husband, wife or civil partner, unless:
    you separated and didnít live together at all in that tax year
    you gave them goods for their business to sell on
    The tax year is from 6 April to 5 April the following year.
    If they later sell the asset
    Your spouse or civil partner may have to pay tax on any gain if they later dispose of the asset.
    Their gain or loss will be calculated from when you or they first owned it.
    If this was before April 1982, your spouse or civil partner should work out their gain using the market value on 31 March 1982 instead.
    They should keep a record of what you paid for the asset.
    • sausage_time
    • By sausage_time 19th Apr 17, 8:07 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    sausage_time
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:07 AM
    • #4
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:07 AM
    I understand that the CGT liability would transfer, but that would let us "share" the gain and keep it below our allowances. So, back to my question. Is there a way I can assert joint ownership (or beneficiary) of the shares without formally making that transfer before the sale?
    • Biggles
    • By Biggles 19th Apr 17, 8:35 AM
    • 7,232 Posts
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    Biggles
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:35 AM
    • #5
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:35 AM
    How do you hold the shares: nominee a/c, paper?
    • sausage_time
    • By sausage_time 19th Apr 17, 8:57 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    sausage_time
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:57 AM
    • #6
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:57 AM
    How do you hold the shares: nominee a/c, paper?
    Originally posted by Biggles
    Nominee account in this case.
    • AndyT678
    • By AndyT678 19th Apr 17, 9:12 AM
    • 636 Posts
    • 846 Thanks
    AndyT678
    • #7
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:12 AM
    • #7
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:12 AM
    You need your wife to open her own nominee account then transfer some shares to that before selling them.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 19th Apr 17, 9:13 AM
    • 1,861 Posts
    • 2,626 Thanks
    Malthusian
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:13 AM
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:13 AM
    Ring whoever administers your nominee account and ask them what they need. It should be a share transfer form which looks similar to this one. You fill in your name and address under "in the name(s) of" and then in the box next to "the person(s) to whom the security is transferred" you fill in both your names.

    *edit* AndyT678 makes a good point I'd overlooked, you will probably also need an application form to open another account with your nominee provider in joint names.
    Last edited by Malthusian; 19-04-2017 at 9:16 AM.
    • sausage_time
    • By sausage_time 19th Apr 17, 9:27 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    sausage_time
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:27 AM
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:27 AM
    Ring whoever administers your nominee account and ask them what they need. It should be a share transfer form which looks similar to this one. You fill in your name and address under "in the name(s) of" and then in the box next to "the person(s) to whom the security is transferred" you fill in both your names.

    *edit* AndyT678 makes a good point I'd overlooked, you will probably also need an application form to open another account with your nominee provider in joint names.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    Thanks! And therein lies the problem. Sadly I don't have time to work though this (need to sell in the next day or so), and was wondering if I can make some kind of nomination "off-line". I had thought this was possible, but I can't find any reference to it anywhere.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 19th Apr 17, 10:09 AM
    • 6,165 Posts
    • 10,862 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    Get a solicitor to create a trust instrument that transfers half your shares into a bare trust in favour of your wife of which you are the trustee.

    Then prepare for an argument with HMRC when you assert that the shares sold belong equally to you and your wife's bare trust even though:

    - the broker sales paperwork says they belong only to you and do not mention a truss arrangement;

    - the company registrar does not have any record of the trust being an owner of the shares at any point;

    - the general terms and conditions of your broker agreement have already had you confirm that you are the sole owner of all the shares in the account you operate and that they are not held as nominee or trustee on behalf of anyone else unless you specifically open an account as nominee or trustee with them or a joint account and deal through those separate accounts.

    So, all the evidential paperwork for the transaction would point to it being a solo disposal.

    It takes a few days to settle a share disposal on the market anyway. If the broker sold your shares in the market tomorrow, he would get the cash for them from the buyer on Monday at the earliest. Then another few days for a free bacs transfer to your bank account unless you are desperate to get the cash quicker and pay for same day transfer.

    So, an alternative option would just be to get a loan. Subject to status, Tesco or Sainsbury or both would lend you £25k at about 3% APR, you'd get it in your bank next week, meanwhile do a proper transfer and sell having avoided more CGT, use the proceeds to settle the loan after only suffering a bit of interest at a low rate.
    • Biggles
    • By Biggles 19th Apr 17, 1:24 PM
    • 7,232 Posts
    • 4,653 Thanks
    Biggles
    Sadly I don't have time to work though this (need to sell in the next day or so)
    Originally posted by sausage_time
    If you're brokers are up to scratch, you could do this inside a day.

    Call them, ask them to open a joint account (they'll need ID etc from your wife for that) and then to transfer all your holdings to the joint account. Better still, if they will do it, is just convert your existing account to a joint account. Either way, all your gains will be shared at the point shares are sold from the joint a/c.

    NB (just to confirm, having seen many misapprehensions on the subject) you will have gains of over £11,300, not just proceeds of over £11,300?
    • sausage_time
    • By sausage_time 19th Apr 17, 2:07 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    sausage_time
    NB (just to confirm, having seen many misapprehensions on the subject) you will have gains of over £11,300, not just proceeds of over £11,300?
    Originally posted by Biggles
    Nope, really is a gain.
    Thanks to everyone for their suggestions!
    • Credit-Crunched
    • By Credit-Crunched 20th Apr 17, 3:31 PM
    • 2,021 Posts
    • 3,929 Thanks
    Credit-Crunched
    The gov.uk website says:

    You donít pay Capital Gains Tax on assets you give or sell to your husband, wife or civil partner, unless:
    you separated and didnít live together at all in that tax year
    you gave them goods for their business to sell on
    The tax year is from 6 April to 5 April the following year.
    If they later sell the asset
    Your spouse or civil partner may have to pay tax on any gain if they later dispose of the asset.
    Their gain or loss will be calculated from when you or they first owned it.
    If this was before April 1982, your spouse or civil partner should work out their gain using the market value on 31 March 1982 instead.
    They should keep a record of what you paid for the asset.
    Originally posted by IanManc
    Sorry, lazy typing. My point, although not very clear, was even if transferred to your wife, on disposal would trigger a chargeable event. The plus side, is you have two peoples annual exempt amounts to utilise, which may assist in your disposal planning.
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