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  • FIRST POST
    • EmmEve
    • By EmmEve 18th Apr 17, 12:38 PM
    • 255Posts
    • 70Thanks
    EmmEve
    Unsatisfactory 2nd hand car
    • #1
    • 18th Apr 17, 12:38 PM
    Unsatisfactory 2nd hand car 18th Apr 17 at 12:38 PM
    We purchased a second hand car around 6/7 weeks ago. On the test drive the engine management light was on, we were told it was the lamda sensor and would be fixed. We agreed to purchase the car on this basis. The eml light was off when we picked the car up and we were told the issue was fixed.

    Unfortunately we've had to return the car to the garage twice, both times the diagnostics have shown a fault with the lamda sensor again. We've been told diagnostics aren't always 100% correct, so sometimes it takes a bit of guesswork to find and fix the exact issue. I do appreciate this, but i'm scared of finding myself with a car that will have endless problems and I would prefer to return it. I don't believe the car is of satisfactory quality for its age and mileage due to this persistant fault? (2011 32k). I have agreed to a repair this time but told the garage if the fault flags up again I will be returning the car.

    I know the garage can deduct some money from our refund as we've had the car over 30 days. Is there a specific formula that gets used for this or is just left for us to argue out between ourselves? Can we ask them to source us another similar car as a replacement instead of getting a refund?

    If we reject the car and ask for a refund can we claim back costs incurred (travel expenses or hire car) until we find a replacement ourselves? (if the car is of unsatisfactory quality am I right in thinking this is a breach of contract and we could claim damages to restore us to the financial position we should have been in before the breach occured?)

    If we ask the garage to source a replacement can we drive the rejected car it until we have the replacement? Or is this down to what we agree between ourselves?

    Many thanks if you can offer any advice. I want to know where I stand so I can negotiate effectively and with as little hassle as possible for all of us whilst making sure we're not left up the creek without a paddle! Or car
Page 1
    • davidwood123
    • By davidwood123 18th Apr 17, 1:00 PM
    • 352 Posts
    • 816 Thanks
    davidwood123
    • #2
    • 18th Apr 17, 1:00 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Apr 17, 1:00 PM
    EML's come on if the wind changes direction.

    Garages now do what their computers tell them so will keep changing parts until the light isn't on.

    Give them time.
    • EmmEve
    • By EmmEve 18th Apr 17, 1:08 PM
    • 255 Posts
    • 70 Thanks
    EmmEve
    • #3
    • 18th Apr 17, 1:08 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Apr 17, 1:08 PM
    Thanks for the reply David. I wish I knew more about cars/mechanics as I'd be more confident about giving them more time. We've not had issues with eml's on previous cars.
    • davidwood123
    • By davidwood123 18th Apr 17, 1:28 PM
    • 352 Posts
    • 816 Thanks
    davidwood123
    • #4
    • 18th Apr 17, 1:28 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Apr 17, 1:28 PM
    I had one on for ten years and it never let me down
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 18th Apr 17, 1:36 PM
    • 10,863 Posts
    • 8,123 Thanks
    unholyangel
    • #5
    • 18th Apr 17, 1:36 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Apr 17, 1:36 PM

    If we reject the car and ask for a refund can we claim back costs incurred (travel expenses or hire car) until we find a replacement ourselves? (if the car is of unsatisfactory quality am I right in thinking this is a breach of contract and we could claim damages to restore us to the financial position we should have been in before the breach occured?)

    If we ask the garage to source a replacement can we drive the rejected car it until we have the replacement? Or is this down to what we agree between ourselves?

    Many thanks if you can offer any advice. I want to know where I stand so I can negotiate effectively and with as little hassle as possible for all of us whilst making sure we're not left up the creek without a paddle! Or car
    Originally posted by EmmEve
    The only thing the legislation says about the matter is:
    (8)If the consumer exercises the final right to reject, any refund to the consumer may be reduced by a deduction for use, to take account of the use the consumer has had of the goods in the period since they were delivered
    With a motor vehicle, this may be comparing its purchase price to its current value (based on other cars of same make/model/age/mileage etc). If it was worth £5000 when you purchased it and now (if the fault wasnt present) was worth £4800 then it could be said you had £200 use of the goods.

    As for damages, its not a case that you can claim any losses suffered. The law surrounding them can be quite complex but generally where one party is in breach and the other party suffers a loss as a result, the party in breach are liable. However, the innocent party needs to take reasonable steps to mitigate their loss and they should not take unreasonable steps to increase their loss. Generally losses are only recoverable if they are foreseeable/not too remote and are a direct result of the breach. Damages would likely be awarded on the basis of you not having entered the contract. If you hadn't entered the contract, you'd still be spending the interim having to find alternative transportation until you found another vehicle so I'm not confident you could claim for that as a loss caused by their breach.

    Of course that is based on it not being satisfactory quality - bearing in mind that satisfactory quality takes account of relevant circumstance (such as price paid, age/mileage etc). In other words its subjective and if its a minor issue it probably wouldn't make the car of unsatisfactory quality.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • bris
    • By bris 18th Apr 17, 2:55 PM
    • 6,624 Posts
    • 5,648 Thanks
    bris
    • #6
    • 18th Apr 17, 2:55 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Apr 17, 2:55 PM
    You can claim consequential losses yes but if you do get a refund then that contract ends and you can't claim for a hire car after that.


    Reasonable losses would be the cost of getting the car to them and if you hired a car whilst it was getting repaired then you can add that to the claim as long as you had no choice and it was an equivalent car, i,e if you have a Focus you can't hire a Ferrari and expect them to pay. If they provided a courtesy car or you didn't need one due to having alternative transport then there is no loss. Only you will know what are genuine losses.
    • NotRichAtAll
    • By NotRichAtAll 18th Apr 17, 4:13 PM
    • 629 Posts
    • 473 Thanks
    NotRichAtAll
    • #7
    • 18th Apr 17, 4:13 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Apr 17, 4:13 PM
    So if you have a single exhaust system, you probably have one catalytic converter and, thus, two oxygen sensors. Cars with double exhaust pipes, meanwhile, will be fitted with a total of four oxygen sensors. They are not that difficult to replace.
    Are you just taking the garage's word that it is the lamda sensor thats at fault? If it was me i would get an obdII reader £5 eb** and plug it into the car and see what error codes pop up and what error codes are stored, you can read all this on a smartphone using the app "torque"

    what make/model car is it?
    • EmmEve
    • By EmmEve 18th Apr 17, 4:36 PM
    • 255 Posts
    • 70 Thanks
    EmmEve
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 17, 4:36 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 17, 4:36 PM
    I am taking their word as I know zilch about cars unfortunately. They have said it may not be the actual lamda sensor but something linked to it, but it shows as a lamda fault on the diagnostics as it can't always nail the exact fault? One sensor has already been replaced.

    It's a vauxhall meriva. I'll look into the app etc thank you.
    • NotRichAtAll
    • By NotRichAtAll 19th Apr 17, 5:43 PM
    • 629 Posts
    • 473 Thanks
    NotRichAtAll
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 5:43 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 5:43 PM
    so only one has been replaced when there are 2

    There will be at least one sensor at the front of the vehicle, mounted into the exhaust pipe or manifold somewhere before the catalytic convertor. This is known as the front, pre-cat or upstream sensor.

    There will then be another sensor positioned after the catalyst, known as the rear, post-cat or downstream sensor. Under normal circumstances, the rear sensor does not have any direct impact on the fuel mixture (and therefore the running and emissions of the engine) - it is there to offer a comparison value after the catalyst, allowing the car to monitor the performance of the cat.

    You should possibly notice poor fuel economy.
    Last edited by NotRichAtAll; 19-04-2017 at 5:45 PM.
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