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  • FIRST POST
    • Haj
    • By Haj 17th Apr 17, 11:11 PM
    • 25Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Haj
    TWO UKCPM PCN's
    • #1
    • 17th Apr 17, 11:11 PM
    TWO UKCPM PCN's 17th Apr 17 at 11:11 PM
    Hi,

    Would really appreciate some advice on TWO recent PCN's i received in the same location. The Car park belongs to the serviced offices were i work and i just plainly forgot to display my permit on both occasions . As I was borrowing my father's car at the time the FORMAL DEMAND letter that just came through the post is obviously addressed to him and i'm appealing on his behalf. By the way I have already asked the office management to help but they aren't able to assist.

    Question1: Would i need to amend the template from the newbies thread at all or do i just simply send them exactly the same appeal letter for both occasions? (still waiting for the 2nd demand to come)

    Question2: Should i be asking them to provide profit/loss details to justify the charge in the appeals letter?

    Also after reading some more about IPC members on here I'm thinking if i should just pay up as it seems highly likely CPM will reject the two appeals and then refer to a DCA then possibly onto court which in itself will cause me so much grief from the old man as he would need to attend if it ends up that way. Not sure what to do here.

    Any additional advice much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Haj; 17-04-2017 at 11:23 PM.
Page 1
    • Blibble
    • By Blibble 18th Apr 17, 7:28 AM
    • 226 Posts
    • 106 Thanks
    Blibble
    • #2
    • 18th Apr 17, 7:28 AM
    • #2
    • 18th Apr 17, 7:28 AM
    Question 1: Yes. Send the IPC appeal in sticky thread as this has been crafted for that purpose, and send it for both PCNs

    Question 2: What good with profit / loss details achieve? Unless you fancy that getting a role as the PPC's on call accountant would get you off the PCN (you're welcome to try) then this is irrelevant, particular if you wish to argue that the values on the PCN are not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

    Do you live with your father? Are you able to supply your address as the forwarding address to manage the appeals, so any correspondence goes to you & not your father in order to stop him stressing out?

    Please don't just pay them, otherwise you'll be unnecessarily adding to their profit / loss details on the wrong side.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Apr 17, 8:35 AM
    • 40,463 Posts
    • 80,847 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #3
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:35 AM
    • #3
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:35 AM
    As above, send the IPC template exactly as it appears, as the (day to day)keeper on the day of the alleged event. One template for each PCN.

    Debt collectors have no powers and can safely be ignored. The NEWBIES thread explains this.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 18th Apr 17, 8:44 AM
    • 3,833 Posts
    • 5,409 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #4
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:44 AM
    • #4
    • 18th Apr 17, 8:44 AM
    Does the lease on the office include parking?
    what does it say about permits?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Haj
    • By Haj 18th Apr 17, 11:31 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Haj
    • #5
    • 18th Apr 17, 11:31 AM
    • #5
    • 18th Apr 17, 11:31 AM
    Question 1: Yes. Send the IPC appeal in sticky thread as this has been crafted for that purpose, and send it for both PCNs

    Question 2: What good with profit / loss details achieve? Unless you fancy that getting a role as the PPC's on call accountant would get you off the PCN (you're welcome to try) then this is irrelevant, particular if you wish to argue that the values on the PCN are not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

    Do you live with your father? Are you able to supply your address as the forwarding address to manage the appeals, so any correspondence goes to you & not your father in order to stop him stressing out?

    Please don't just pay them, otherwise you'll be unnecessarily adding to their profit / loss details on the wrong side.
    Originally posted by Blibble
    Hi Blibble,

    Thanks for your reply. Yes i do live with him so difficult to have sent elsewhere, unless i have them sent to my office address somehow. Do you think that could work?
    • Haj
    • By Haj 18th Apr 17, 11:33 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Haj
    • #6
    • 18th Apr 17, 11:33 AM
    • #6
    • 18th Apr 17, 11:33 AM
    Does the lease on the office include parking?
    what does it say about permits?
    Originally posted by Half_way
    Hi Halfway,

    Permit is included in the lease but I will need to double check on what it says exactly re displaying permits.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Apr 17, 12:52 PM
    • 15,427 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 18th Apr 17, 12:52 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Apr 17, 12:52 PM
    Hi Halfway,

    Permit is included in the lease but I will need to double check on what it says exactly re displaying permits.
    Originally posted by Haj
    The lease is critical, but I suspect it will say precious little about permits (we haven't seen many - or even any - that have) which won't be good news for the PPC.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Haj
    • By Haj 19th Apr 17, 8:11 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Haj
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:11 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 17, 8:11 PM
    Hi guys,

    I'm pretty certain the answer would be a no here but in the interest of keeping my father out of this whole situation would this appeal work if i fill out the TRANSFER OF LIABILITY section of the Formal Demand letter with my details (as in user of the car at the time). I could then start the appeal under my name instead of his? Possible?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 17, 9:23 PM
    • 51,452 Posts
    • 65,047 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:23 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 17, 9:23 PM
    Yes it is possible, if a person (keeper) is so vulnerable that they can't cope with it then yes.

    Or maybe appeal using your address but his name as keeper and write in HIS NAME, telling UKCPM this is the address for service and not to use the old address - at least then you would see every letter, not him. Most cases never go to court so it might then just be a matter of ignoring letters demanding money.

    Could appeal in his name with your address, saying that he was not the driver but the driver has every right to park at that location as an employee, given the terms under which the company lease the site, they have primacy of contract and rights of way. I am assuming they do, most modern leases including a car park would extend to rights of way and easements over time (before UKCPM rocked up - and why the heck did they, who needs them?!).

    However, it is very possible that UKCPM might still press ahead as it's 2 x £100 and he would have to be at the hearing unless you replied (as him) in time to a Gladstones LBC, naming the driver and giving your address as a last resort (before proceedings).

    Can be a good bet to wait and only do this late because then:

    - the named driver, if pursued, can say they were never sent any letters about it so have not had a fair chance to respond

    - the keeper, if wrongly still pursued, has a VERY good defence that they have already discharged liability before proceedings, by naming the driver & giving an address for service (end of liability for Dad, but if the court claim arrived in his name he'd still have to be the defendant).

    Up to you.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Haj
    • By Haj 19th Apr 17, 11:12 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Haj
    Yes it is possible, if a person (keeper) is so vulnerable that they can't cope with it then yes.

    Or maybe appeal using your address but his name as keeper and write in HIS NAME, telling UKCPM this is the address for service and not to use the old address - at least then you would see every letter, not him. Most cases never go to court so it might then just be a matter of ignoring letters demanding money.

    Could appeal in his name with your address, saying that he was not the driver but the driver has every right to park at that location as an employee, given the terms under which the company lease the site, they have primacy of contract and rights of way. I am assuming they do, most modern leases including a car park would extend to rights of way and easements over time (before UKCPM rocked up - and why the heck did they, who needs them?!).

    However, it is very possible that UKCPM might still press ahead as it's 2 x £100 and he would have to be at the hearing unless you replied (as him) in time to a Gladstones LBC, naming the driver and giving your address as a last resort (before proceedings).

    Can be a good bet to wait and only do this late because then:

    - the named driver, if pursued, can say they were never sent any letters about it so have not had a fair chance to respond

    - the keeper, if wrongly still pursued, has a VERY good defence that they have already discharged liability before proceedings, by naming the driver & giving an address for service (end of liability for Dad, but if the court claim arrived in his name he'd still have to be the defendant).

    Up to you.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad


    Its a tough call. Part of me wants to stick it out and the other just wants to get rid and save myself the oncoming grief. Either choice leads to a headache anyway, going to sleep on it.

    Thanks for this, really appreciate it.
    • Haj
    • By Haj 27th May 17, 4:43 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Haj
    Hi guys,

    Just to update and to receive some further advice on a THIRD PCN i received in the same car park. (jeez i know i'm not good at this) After paying the first two this time i did appeal (on behalf of my father) and i just received the letter from CPM rejecting my appeal.

    The letter states some interesting points about the Parking Eye Vs Beavis case and that this case was found 6-1 in favour of the parking company over the motorist etc, this is worrying especially if i'm looking to 2nd stage appeal?

    Also says they are not obliged to send the contract between them and the landowner onto me.

    It also says that upon reading the signage I have contactually agreed to pay a parking charge fee if the restrictions were breached. Now do i 2nd stage appeal staying the driver will not be identified and no contract has been made? Is there a template for this 2nd stage appeal?

    Also how successful are the appeals against IPC members such as CPM? I have appealed successfully many times to a BPA member but this one seems worrying.

    Thanks!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th May 17, 4:44 PM
    • 51,452 Posts
    • 65,047 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    After paying the first two
    They have you on a mugs' list ('wow, this person actually pays us money') and they will be targeting that car now.

    These are ex-clampers, knuckle-draggers of the highest order, not people to pay. You made the wrong call and life will be awful now.

    The letter states some interesting points about the Parking Eye Vs Beavis case and that this case was found 6-1 in favour of the parking company over the motorist etc, this is worrying especially if i'm looking to 2nd stage appeal?
    You think they make interesting points about a 2013 - 2015 long-term and well-known case, which was nothing like this scenario, and which some of us were actively involved in, fully aware of, and could have given you far more interesting points about, had you asked? Yes it was found against Mr Beavis, so what? How does that matter in your completely different case?

    Wow. We help people defend & win cases all the time, 99% of people here still win you know! Never mind the Beavis case.

    Mugs list, sorry, you are still there. Please extricate yourself from 'victim mode' and stop believing their points.

    And finally, you are NOT looking to use 'second stage appeal'.

    You need to read post #3 of the NEWBIES thread about the IAS. You will NOT be doing that.

    This is NOT worrying - except that you have been taken in, hook, line and sinker, and you are still allowing yourself to wriggle on their hook.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 27-05-2017 at 4:51 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Haj
    • By Haj 27th May 17, 7:19 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Haj
    They have you on a mugs' list ('wow, this person actually pays us money') and they will be targeting that car now.

    These are ex-clampers, knuckle-draggers of the highest order, not people to pay. You made the wrong call and life will be awful now.


    You think they make interesting points about a 2013 - 2015 long-term and well-known case, which was nothing like this scenario, and which some of us were actively involved in, fully aware of, and could have given you far more interesting points about, had you asked? Yes it was found against Mr Beavis, so what? How does that matter in your completely different case?

    Wow. We help people defend & win cases all the time, 99% of people here still win you know! Never mind the Beavis case.

    Mugs list, sorry, you are still there. Please extricate yourself from 'victim mode' and stop believing their points.

    And finally, you are NOT looking to use 'second stage appeal'.

    You need to read post #3 of the NEWBIES thread about the IAS. You will NOT be doing that.

    This is NOT worrying - except that you have been taken in, hook, line and sinker, and you are still allowing yourself to wriggle on their hook.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Wow indeed! You've come across like I've been offensive, which my post was certainly not!

    I had my reasons to pay the first two PCN's as i stated in my posts earlier, not going into that again and I don't appreciate being called a mug. You may think i'd rather pay these companies as its easier than put up a fight, however couldn't be farther from the truth. Thanks to this forum I've successfully appealed PCN's from BPA members in the past BUT this is my first experience with an IPC member and from what i've read on here the appeals procedure isn't as straight forwardi.e. threatening DCA's letters (potentially for years) plus court visit. Hence why i refer to this as worrying (for me at least) and wondered what the success rate is and also how often/likely it is to end up in court.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 27th May 17, 8:21 PM
    • 15,427 Posts
    • 24,124 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I have appealed successfully many times to a BPA member but this one seems worrying.
    How many parking charges have you managed to rack up? Are you a serial fly-parker?

    how often/likely it is to end up in court.
    UKCPM have become pretty litigious of late. Whether they will issue you with court papers is open to conjecture. But I'd say the chances will have increased considerably this year - especially with 2 tickets.

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/UK_Car_Park_Management.html
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Haj
    • By Haj 27th May 17, 10:18 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Haj
    How many parking charges have you managed to rack up? Are you a serial fly-parker?



    UKCPM have become pretty litigious of late. Whether they will issue you with court papers is open to conjecture. But I'd say the chances will have increased considerably this year - especially with 2 tickets.

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/UK_Car_Park_Management.html
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    haha not that many. I was referring to the PCN's i've received over the course of a few years. This time round its hit me hard as i was borrowing a car and the permit wasn't fixed to the screen so on the odd chance i would forget to put it on display. It just so happened i was slack on three occasions inside the space of a month and got punished each time.

    Thanks for the info
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th May 17, 10:33 PM
    • 51,452 Posts
    • 65,047 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I had my reasons to pay the first two PCN's as i stated in my posts earlier, not going into that again and I don't appreciate being called a mug.
    Originally posted by Haj
    It's not me, I am saying they have you on their mug's list.

    You had no reason to pay the first two. It was a bad idea and that's why they are after more. If you hadn't paid them, the sky would not have fallen in, but now they have you down as a victim who can be milked for money on any old excuse.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Haj
    • By Haj 28th May 17, 3:14 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Haj
    It's not me, I am saying they have you on their mug's list.

    You had no reason to pay the first two. It was a bad idea and that's why they are after more. If you hadn't paid them, the sky would not have fallen in, but now they have you down as a victim who can be milked for money on any old excuse.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    So does that mean there's no point in appealing the third PCN?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th May 17, 3:28 PM
    • 15,427 Posts
    • 24,124 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    So does that mean there's no point in appealing the third PCN?
    Originally posted by Haj
    Appeal it to CPM, it will be rejected, don't bother with IAS, ignore debt collectors, don't ignore court papers. All explained in the NEWBIES sticky thread.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th May 17, 5:23 PM
    • 51,452 Posts
    • 65,047 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So does that mean there's no point in appealing the third PCN?
    Originally posted by Haj
    There's no point in appealing any IPC PCN (in the sense that it WILL NOT be cancelled, these are not normal firms, these are ex-clampers who should not be within a million miles of that public car park) but no-one here tells people to pay them.

    Come back if they try a small claim. In the meantime, mull over my suggestion from before, to protect the keeper from the threatograms, so that you see any court claim and could write his defence with our help, and properly fight back this time:

    if a person (keeper) is so vulnerable that they can't cope with it then yes.

    Or maybe appeal using your address but his name as keeper and write in HIS NAME, telling UKCPM this is the address for service and not to use the old address - at least then you would see every letter, not him. Most cases never go to court so it might then just be a matter of ignoring letters demanding money.

    Could appeal in his name with your address, saying that he was not the driver but the driver has every right to park at that location as an employee, given the terms under which the company lease the site, they have primacy of contract and rights of way. I am assuming they do, most modern leases including a car park would extend to rights of way and easements over time (before UKCPM rocked up - and why the heck did they, who needs them?!).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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