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  • FIRST POST
    • Fair_A
    • By Fair_A 17th Apr 17, 5:50 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Fair_A
    Indigo Rail Station 'Penalty' Notice
    • #1
    • 17th Apr 17, 5:50 PM
    Indigo Rail Station 'Penalty' Notice 17th Apr 17 at 5:50 PM
    Dear All,


    I am newbie and this will be my first ever post on a forum! Either way, I really hope I can seek some help and guidance with my matter at hand.


    On the 18th of January 2017 I received a ticket on my car windscreen at my local railway station for failing to display a valid ticket (Breach Code 1). It wasn't my car but my partner's car. She is the registered keeper. To pay, one has to call a number and enter the required options. However on this day I did not select my partner's car but my own with which to pay for a full day's parking. When I returned later in the day, I had realised my error once I saw the ticket.


    The ticket states Penalty Notice and not Parking Notice, issued by Indigo Parking Solutions UK Ltd, on behalf of Southern. I appealed the following day stating that I had paid and that I made a genuine mistake on selecting the wrong car registration and hoped that they could see that.


    Nonetheless, weeks had passed and I heard nothing in the way of a decision to my appeal. I called them 3 weeks after my appeal and they said they had a backlog of appeals to process, that they will get round to review it and they will write/email to notify me of the outcome. I waited and waited and received no notification of the outcome of my appeal. Almost 6 weeks since my initial appeal had passed to which I thought I would check the online appeal system through which I initially applied. Not surprising, the appeal was rejected, dated 18th of February 2017. I reviewed on the online system at the beginning of April and I said I had received no letter of rejection and or notification to which they stated they would do. I tripled checked my post and email including junk folder.


    Returning back from holiday I received a letter 'Penalty Notice By Post, Notice to Owner', dated 27th of March. The letter states in summary about Byelaws and the Transport Act 2000. The opportunity to pay £100 to avoid a criminal prosecution, byelaw 14(4)ii allows vehicles to be clamped and if I pad within 14 days of this letter I receive a discount to £60.


    I have tried to research as much as I can myself about what to do next and writing to them on the grounds of:- not receiving a rejection letter and therefore not receiving a POPLA code, all not within 28 days? As I have already owned up to being the driver when I was asked if I was the driver during my online appeal, I'm surprised that they have sent a Notice to Owner. However I feel the 56 day rule in section 4 in POFA Act 2012 that NtK must been issued within 56 days doesn't apply due to it being the Byelaws, therefore I cant mention this also in my letter?


    Based on the last paragraph above, do they have any case against me in pursuing this Penalty Notice? My sincere apologies for the length of this post but I hope it provides a detailed explanation to many others in the future whom might come across such an issue.


    Comments, advice, guidance, help would be very and most welcomed. Thank you
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Apr 17, 8:11 PM
    • 13,648 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 17th Apr 17, 8:11 PM
    • #2
    • 17th Apr 17, 8:11 PM
    there is no penalty notice as the TOC would have to issue that under the bylaws, this hasnt happened unless SOUTHERN sent it ?? (which I doubt)

    there is a speculative parking charge notice from INDIGO issued on railway land where actual bylaws apply , hence why there is no POFA2012 AND THEY CAN ONLY PURSUE THE OWNER under the bylaws, but INDIGO are pulling the wool over your eyes with threats and smoke and mirrors about parking invoices

    INDIGO are not allowed to issue penalty notices , only the landowner and only if they are out of pocket or a bylaw was broken

    read any recent INDIGO railway threads for england and wales (so over the last 12 months) and follow the same paths and procedures , plus read the NEWBIES sticky thread too

    then appeal to indigo and then to popla using the same legal arguments for BPA members and railway invoices like INDIGO ones (which are similar to the airport ones and PORT ones)

    you need to learn those differences and therefore screw indigo for issuing parking charge notices on non-relevant land where they dont apply

    it is very unlikely that the TOC will issue a penalty notice for a magistrates court within the required 6 months , so you are proving that INDIGO have no valid case , also stringing it out past the 6 months penalty notice from the TOC deadline

    as I said its smoke and mirrors and complicated, so learn the facts and the differences too

    if you appealed and informed them of the drivers details then that was a bad decision , plus they should have issued a popla code which is valid for 28 days

    if they didnt do this you complain to the BPA (who should investigate but are likely to side with indigo)

    and NTO should be issued regardless , because an owner is responsible on railway land , but its probably an NTK, not an NTO that they sent as they would have no idea who the owner actually is (only the keeper)

    if all the above has failed, there is nothing you can do other than await any court papers , 6 years for an MCOL from INDIGO, 6 months for a magistrates court from the TOC
    Last edited by Redx; 17-04-2017 at 8:28 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Fair_A
    • By Fair_A 18th Apr 17, 3:10 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Fair_A
    • #3
    • 18th Apr 17, 3:10 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Apr 17, 3:10 PM
    Dear Redex,


    Thank you for the prompt and detailed reply. It is, as no doubt for many others in the past before me, very greatly appreciated.


    I have done a lot of reading of other threads and appeals on Indigo since your response, especially were payment was made to park but for a different car registration.


    What I have gathered so far from yourself, further reading this is what I understand. Please correct me if I have misunderstood.


    1) Only TOC are legally allowed to issue 'Penalty Notices'. So far I had a headed 'Penalty Notice' affixed to the car and a letter headed 'Penalty Notice By Post'. Answering your question, it wasn't sent by Southern but by PCN Admin Centre Indigo. Therefore under clause 14.2 of BPA code of practice, "Penalty Notice" is a misrepresentation of authority?
    In addition, the landowner, I take that to be Southern/National Rail are not out of pocket because I did pay to park on their land, therefore I didn't break a byelaw?


    2) Indigo's "Penalty" (Parking/Private) Notice is not relevant on Railway land because the land is not deemed private and therefore POFA 2012 is not applicable?
    In addition, because byelaws apply, it is the owner and not the keeper of the car that is liable?


    Regarding your point about the NTO/NTK. Whilst the letter states NTO, it is actually a NTK as you have rightly pointed because they can only know whom the keeper is from the DVLA. Reading other threads, an owner, keeper and driver can be three different people.


    Now to clarify a few points. I have already appeal and it got rejected. I received no rejection letter with an explanation and a POPLA to take it to the second stage of appeals. Update - I called Indigo today and they said they had emailed me my rejection letter on the day they rejected it on the 18th of Feb 2017. They forwarded me a copy of the letter. I have asked for proof that they actually emailed this rejection letter from the email sent box.


    You mentioned I should appeal through POPLA but clearly due to not receiving the rejection letter, that opportunity has passed me. Therefore what should and can I do next? Write to Indigo stating my appeal on the basis of the above two points? In addition, because Indigo have tried to apply POFA 2012 although not applicable in this case, that the NTK/NTO wasn't sent within the specified time frame as set out in section 4, 56 days after the alleged offence, therefore failing to do means I am/owner/keeper is not liable to pay anything? Should I also write stating I wish to appeal to POPLA if possible?


    Your comments, answers, guidance would be so most welcomed. Thank you.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Apr 17, 3:59 PM
    • 38,500 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 18th Apr 17, 3:59 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Apr 17, 3:59 PM
    Complain to the BPA and DVLA about the misrepresentation of authority, and non receipt of rejection with PoPLA code, with a copy to the scammers. There is actually nothing stopping you from making a late PoPLA appeal as the UK Government requires that it should be allowed for not less than one year. PoPLA, the BPA, and the parking scammers however think they can ignore the will of parliament.

    It is strange that the private parking industry suffer from more postal failure deliveries than any other group or individual in the country. Anyone would think it was deiberate.

    Anyway, this will become statute barred after six months so playing ping pong with the scammers is the best way forward. Make the complaints, tell the scammers that since byelaws apply, they have no claim on the keeper or driver, so they should cease and desist from wasting their time and money now.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 18th Apr 17, 4:52 PM
    • 13,648 Posts
    • 16,754 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 18th Apr 17, 4:52 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Apr 17, 4:52 PM
    as above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    the trick is to complain to the BPA and also the DVLA about the lack of a POPLA code and so try to obtain a popla code from INDIGO , plus string it along for 6 months as well to timeout the penalty charge aspect which is a separate issue which as you have seen the PPC has no authority and so is misrepresentation

    this also creates a paper trail that can be used in your defence should it be required in the future

    INDIGO are fully aware of this but many people are bullied and misled into paying the pcn as an invoice due to a lack of understanding

    you may not get it resolved, but you must still go through the motions , especially until the DCLG and possibly other government department change the rules

    this recent thread also highlights the issues too

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5623036
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Apr 17, 4:58 PM
    • 12,159 Posts
    • 18,560 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 18th Apr 17, 4:58 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Apr 17, 4:58 PM
    Just check your email 'Junk' folder as sometimes PPC emails can land there (one might say a email provider has got some pretty canny algorithms for spotting real junk mail, but a bit unfortunate if you've missed out on a POPLA code).
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Fair_A
    • By Fair_A 18th Apr 17, 5:45 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Fair_A
    • #7
    • 18th Apr 17, 5:45 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Apr 17, 5:45 PM
    Thank you kindly Fruitcake, Redx and Umkomaas for the very prompt replies.


    Umkomaas, I checked my junk folder towards the end of March but by then any junk mail only lasts 10 days with Outlook. When I called today they said that they emailed the rejection letter to me on the 18th of February, therefore if it did arrive in my junk folder, I wouldn't have known and it would have automatically been deleted. Are they not supposed to send a rejection letter to the appellant physical address?


    Thank you Fruitcake, Redx, I will complain as you both have mentioned to the BPA and DVLA about misrepresentation of authority and lack of a POPLA code.


    Regarding trying to get another POPLA code from Indigo, would I just email them and ask them for it stating that I never received the rejection letter and an opportunity to a further appeal at the same time mentioning that I contest their PN because it is not applicable under byelaws? As I mentioned above, do they not need to send a physical rejection letter to the appellant's home address and not just by email?


    Lastly, regarding the NTO/NTK, considering this was sent out 70 days after the issue of the PN and not within 56 days, is this something I could also mention when emailing them for a POPLA code or does that point not hold water?


    Thank you so very much guys again.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 18th Apr 17, 5:51 PM
    • 13,648 Posts
    • 16,754 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 17, 5:51 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 17, 5:51 PM
    yes complain to the BPA and the DVLA about the lack of a POPLA code and lack of an ADR (ie:- popla)

    the 56 day argument is a valid defence point if POFA2012 was relevant, but it isnt and so although it can be mentioned the fact that POFA2012 does not apply overrides the argument anyway , so a useful fact but overridden by law

    its the lack of a POPLA code that is the issue here, so yes demand one, they already rejected your appeal and so there is no need to give them any info, you are demanding ADR by POPLA , nothing more

    all the above is also stringing it out and providing you with paper evidence and a timeline showing you tried to resolve it, so the longer the arguing goes on , the better

    its a game, you need to play it and so need to know the "rules of engagement"

    this could go on for 6 years , so at the moment its about getting to certain stages and not about arguing the legal points , but not receiving a rejection letter in the post is also something you could argue as well (even if its not backed up in law)

    the point here is to bring up ALL relevant arguments that put them on the spot , as a lay person its not your job to decide on their validity in law , but you must bring them up in writing in case you need them in the future

    if it went to court , a judge would decide on the laws that apply (not us)
    Last edited by Redx; 18-04-2017 at 5:54 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 18th Apr 17, 7:01 PM
    • 6,277 Posts
    • 5,101 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #9
    • 18th Apr 17, 7:01 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Apr 17, 7:01 PM
    Read some recent Popla decisions where the adjudicator has found that the mention of the word "penalty" constitutes a misrepresentation od authority and found for the motorist.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Apr 17, 8:38 AM
    • 38,500 Posts
    • 76,937 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Everyone who is told they are too late to appeal to PoPLA (or the IAS skippy court) should quote the ADR legislation when complaining to the BPA, DVLA, PoPLA (IAS) and their MP (who unfortunately is more interested in other things at the moment.)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/542/pdfs/uksi_20150542_en.pdf

    Grounds to refuse to deal with a dispute

    13. The body may only refuse to deal with a domestic dispute or a cross-border dispute which it is competent to deal with on one of the following grounds—

    (a) prior to submitting the complaint to the body, the consumer has not attempted to contact the trader concerned in order to discuss the consumer’s complaint and sought, as a first step, to resolve the matter directly with the trader;

    (b) the dispute is frivolous or vexatious;

    (c) the dispute is being, or has been previously, considered by another ADR entity or by a court;

    (d) the value of the claim falls below or above the monetary thresholds set by the body;

    (e) the consumer has not submitted the complaint to the body within the time period specified by the body, provided that such time period is not less than 12 months from the date upon which the trader has given notice to the consumer that the trader is unable to resolve the complaint with the consumer;

    (f) dealing with such a type of dispute would seriously impair the effective operation of the body


    The body (PoPLA) has specified a time period (28 days) for appeal that is less than that required by the UK Government (12 months) and therefre has breached the ADR Act 2015.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 19-04-2017 at 9:51 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fair_A
    • By Fair_A 19th Apr 17, 5:39 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Fair_A
    Thank you Redex, Deep and Fruit Cake for your responses. You are legends! I agree with you all and I have emailed Indigo requesting a POPLA code by the way of a ADR. Let's see what happens next. I will in the mean time draft a complaint to the BPA and DVLA just in case Indigo decide not to give me a POPLA code. I will let you know what Indigo say.


    Deep, thank you too. I did search the recent POPLA decisions, and yes a Penalty Notice is a misrepresentation of authority in accordance with section 14 of the BPA code of practice as well as section 14.1 and 14.2.


    Thank you Redx and Fruitcake. I feel a lot more confident, knowing the rules and differences and no doubt like many others, just how on earth have these private parking companies been getting away this, all these years. They must of made a shed load of money off innocent citizens.


    I will keep you posted and if granted a POPLA code, I will generate a POPLA response and post it here just before I send it off.


    Thank you aging so very much.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Apr 17, 5:52 PM
    • 38,500 Posts
    • 76,937 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Thank you aging so very much.
    Originally posted by Fair_A


    That's a bit much, even if I am a bit old and creaky myself.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 17, 6:32 PM
    • 45,070 Posts
    • 57,686 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    any junk mail only lasts 10 days with Outlook.
    Outlook is cr*p, in my experience, not just because of the above. Full of glitches and ridiculous errors and really clunky.

    I agree with you all and I have emailed Indigo requesting a POPLA code by the way of a ADR. Let's see what happens next. I will in the mean time draft a complaint to the BPA and DVLA just in case Indigo decide not to give me a POPLA code. I will let you know what Indigo say.
    Good. It will soon be timed out anyway.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • windsmurf
    • By windsmurf 23rd Apr 17, 10:29 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    windsmurf
    I had a similar issue, initial appeal rejected out of hand and POPLA code issued incorreclty. I wrote to INDIGO and subsequently emailed BPA.

    INDIGO did nothing and sent me a letter from the debt collector.

    BPA took action and contacted INDIGO who then issued a code.

    First Letter to INDIGO:
    Dear Sir or Madam,

    Further to your letter dated 19/12/16 I have attempted to lodge an appeal on the POPLA website. Unfortunately the POPLA verification code that you provided me did not work. I emailed POPLA on 15/01/17 to question this, and on 16/01/17 they advised me by phone and email that the code which has been provided me is a duplicate and has already been used by another individual. POPLA have instructed me to contact Indigo for a replacement POPLA verification code so that I can lodge my appeal as is my right under BPA code of practice. See attached correspondence from POPLA.

    Please send me a replacement POPLA verification code by letter to the address above.

    Note that I will not be accepting any further emails from Indigo due to your failure to conduct a proper review of my original appeal which was submitted by electronic means. Your original response was a pro forma letter which did not address any of the specific conditions of my original appeal.

    Any emails sent from Indigo to any email address held on your records in relation to this appeal will be determined not to have been delivered and will not be read.


    Yours Faithfully,


    Follow up letter emailed to BPA:



    Indigo park solutions – FAILURE TO PROVIDE AN APPEALS SERVICE
    Duplicate popla verification code: xxxxxxxx
    PENALTY REF: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    I’m writing to complain about the conduct Indigo Parking Solutions (INDIGO) and seek your support in ensuring that this matter is addressed and to ensure that you hold you operators accountable to the BPA code of practice.


    Having rejected my initial appeal by sending me a pro-forma rejection, an appeal code was provided to me: POPLA Verification code: xxxxxxx (wrong one)


    When I attempted to lodge my appeal online through the POPLA website the code did not work. I contacted POPLA to query this and they advised me that I had been provided a duplicate number, and would need to obtain a replacement number from INDIGO. I wrote to indigo on Jan 16th to request a replacement code so that I could lodge my appeal (Please find attached my letter and associated correspondence with POPLA).

    I have received no response from Indigo.

    Today (28/01/17) I received a letter from “PCN Admin Centre”, a trading name of ZZPS Ltd. It is clear that instead of following the appeals process that they are committed to under BPA code of practice, INDIGO have instead passed my details on to a debt collection agency.

    In taking this action INDIGO have failed to provide me with an efficient appeals process and breached numerous terms under clause 22 of BPA code of practice. I am now living in fear of debt collectors and/or court action due to INDIGO’s flagrant disregard for the BPA appeals process to which they have prescribed.

    I am writing to request that the BPA take the following actions:
    1. Penalise INDIGO to the full extent of your authority for failing to follow the code of practice to which they have prescribed. If they are not held fully accountable and penalized for this breach then drivers will be subject to the demands of cowboy operators operating without any regulatory authority. I am certain that drivers will continue to be intimidated into making payment without being granted access to an appeals process. This is extortion and the BPA must send a strong message to make it clear this is unacceptable and to ensure that INDIGO change their operating practice.
    2. Demand that INDIGO drop any further action against me in relation to this PCN due to the stress and anxiety their breach of regulatory rules has caused me. I believe that the PCN was issued unfairly and I wanted to appeal.
      If the BPA are unable to enforce item 2 then as an absolute minimum I require the BPA to:
    3. Ensure that INDIGO cancel any ongoing action against me by their debt collection agency as I have not yet been given the opportunity to appeal.
    4. Ensure that INDIGO issue a replacement POPLA Verification Code
    5. Contact me in writing to confirm the actions the BPA has taken in addressing this issue and the resultant actions that INDIGO are taking.


    Yours Faithfully


    Good Luck
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