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  • FIRST POST
    • Tony H
    • By Tony H 17th Apr 17, 12:37 PM
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    Tony H
    URGENT - Private Nursing Home & Local Authority EVICTION Pending
    • #1
    • 17th Apr 17, 12:37 PM
    URGENT - Private Nursing Home & Local Authority EVICTION Pending 17th Apr 17 at 12:37 PM
    Good Afternoon Money Savers,

    I believe this might be the most appropriate place to try and seek urgent advice.

    The story - Our mother had a brain tumour removed 6 plus years ago and this resulted in the need for her to receive nursing care. As my late father had been good with money and mother had a reasonable sum £500k it became obvious very quickly that mother would be self funding.

    Myself and my sister discussed what we thought would be best for mother and we started the search for suitable accommodation. We looked at LA nursing homes based on recommendations made by the medical / LA staff whom had brought mother through the operation. We also looked at a brand new private nursing home. It was always our intention to ensure that mother would only move once, that is from the hospital directly into the nursing home. Her house would be sold and added to her pot to provide her future care.

    We opted for the private nursing home because the manager there advised that in the future when mothers money ran out the LA would meet the cost of her placement there. She explained that legislation was in place that secured funding after someone had resided at the private nursing home in excess of 2 years.

    The owners of the private nursing home sold it to another company some 18-24 months ago. Myself and my sister spoke with the new manager about this being our mothers forever home and he clarified that the LA would cover mothers costs there.

    A short while after the new company took over the private care home (unbeknown to myself & sister) legislation changed and the LA would no longer guarantee to cover the cost of mothers care at the private nursing home. This was NOT told to us by the manager, despite his knowledge that we thought & was told that this would be mothers forever home.

    It wasn't until we started to deal with the LA that we found out there was a possibility that mother would have to move into a LA nursing home.

    From this point in time things have just spiralled out of control and in my mind there have been a string of "injustices" by both the private nursing home and the local authority LA.......

    I'll explain more in the next post in addition to seeking the advice of you good people.
Page 2
    • peachyprice
    • By peachyprice 17th Apr 17, 3:49 PM
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    peachyprice
    I'm really sorry you are in this situation. I don't entirely understand how £500,000 plus the sale of the house has been used up in 6 years? That works out at over £8,300 a month?
    Originally posted by Brighton belle
    Mothers money has been spent on her, the private nursing home has other "paid for" facilities that she has been using, holidays, presents etc.
    Originally posted by Tony H
    I don't know the full financial details (at this stage) but I believe mums monthly cost is currently £4600.
    Originally posted by Tony H

    Have you seen proof of where this other £3.5-£4k, every month, has gone? Surely she can't be spending that much on "paid for" facilities month in, month out.
    Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear
    • Tipsntreats
    • By Tipsntreats 17th Apr 17, 3:55 PM
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    Tipsntreats
    OK I am back - Best laid plans and all that.

    It is true that you will not win the case over money. But you will on Best Interest. I have three relatives who were all in a similar situation. Started off self funding, then run out of money.
    My Uncle was the same,BUT I won his case on Best Interest. The LA are now paying his over a thousand a WEEK fees.
    I don't think I am allowed to recommend a solicitor on this thread. But you can Google one that deals with COP matters. As the solicitor will be representing your Mother in this instance, she WILL get funding. You and your sis will be representing your Mother.
    Any other questions just ask me.
    Tips x

    Oops forgot to say, they will stop an eviction.
    Last edited by Tipsntreats; 17-04-2017 at 4:21 PM.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 17th Apr 17, 4:10 PM
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    elsien
    I'm glad your family were able to get sorted.
    But best interests is not a 100% guarantee that the place will be upheld. I have seen people who have still had to move due to financial reasons following the best interests process. It can be challenged but I feel you are misleading the OP by saying it is guaranteed.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • Ms Chocaholic
    • By Ms Chocaholic 17th Apr 17, 4:23 PM
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    Ms Chocaholic
    How can your mum's savings of £500,000 plus whatever the house sold for have been used up already - I see you already mentioned holidays and gifts, but the spending seems really excessive.
    Thrifty Till 50 Then Spend Till The End

    You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time
    • Tipsntreats
    • By Tipsntreats 17th Apr 17, 4:28 PM
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    Tipsntreats
    I'm glad your family were able to get sorted.
    But best interests is not a 100% guarantee that the place will be upheld. I have seen people who have still had to move due to financial reasons following the best interests process. It can be challenged but I feel you are misleading the OP by saying it is guaranteed.
    Originally posted by elsien
    Yes you are right to point this out. It is NOT guaranteed. But it would be up to the judge in the COP, in these cases. It also takes ages to get to court, therefore, the relative cannot be moved until the case is heard.
    It is all very distressing at the time. I suppose in my three cases I was lucky. What I do know is that the relative cannot be moved more than three miles from where the NOK who has LPA lives.
    • Tony H
    • By Tony H 17th Apr 17, 4:55 PM
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    Tony H
    So to clarify, we need to instruct a solicitor. What do we need the solicitor to do exactly?
    • Tipsntreats
    • By Tipsntreats 17th Apr 17, 5:06 PM
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    Tipsntreats
    So to clarify, we need to instruct a solicitor. What do we need the solicitor to do exactly?
    Originally posted by Tony H
    You will need to take your Mother's case to the Court of Protection. You will need a solicitor that is expert in this field. The solicitor will represent your Mother - First respondent.
    The solicitor will liaise with yourself and your sister, who can act on her behalf.
    The case will be a Best Interest case. I know it sounds daunting, but this is the only way to make sure things are done legally. Now your Mother has run out of funding, she should get Legal Aid.
    Have I explained this enough for you?
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 17th Apr 17, 5:23 PM
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    unforeseen
    This is from Clark Wilmott who deal with COP cases in relation to Legal Aid
    For example, proceedings concerning where someone should live (ie when there is a dispute about whether an elderly relative should go into one care home, or another) are unlikely to be funded unless one of the options may involve an interference with their family or private life, or will result in them being deprived of their liberty.
    • Tony H
    • By Tony H 17th Apr 17, 5:24 PM
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    Tony H
    Yes thank you, I will make enquiries tomorrow without delay. It will be a blessing in disguise if it slows things down and gets the nursing home, SW & LA in check.
    • Tipsntreats
    • By Tipsntreats 17th Apr 17, 5:28 PM
    • 8,396 Posts
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    Tipsntreats
    Yes unforeseen told you the best one to use.
    Now relax, and enjoy the rest of the day.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 17th Apr 17, 5:39 PM
    • 14,888 Posts
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    elsien
    https://www.bevanbrittan.com/insights/articles/2017/commissioning-and-the-court-of-protection-the-supreme-courts-decision-in-n-v-accg-2017-ukscc22/
    Last edited by elsien; 17-04-2017 at 5:45 PM.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 17th Apr 17, 6:51 PM
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    teddysmum
    No, when you become funded your pension get's paid to the LA, the LA then pay the nursing home. So essentially the LA have offered to pay the nursing home £700, but the LA will receive £600 'ish from mother. Effectively costing the LA less than £100 / week.

    Frustratingly if someone has minimum pension the cost to the LA would be far higher
    .
    Originally posted by Tony H


    I have to disagree here, as the LA would not put someone of limited means into a higher cost care home.


    There are annoying anomalies in the care system, where those of us who have to self fund end up in the same accommodation as someone who didn't have the income or, worse scenario, wasted their income and have to pay more to finance LA lower contributions.


    However, others rightly point out that we shouldn't expect others to pay if we have the means.


    I'm sorry, but in your case , I don't think it fair that the LA should have to pay for your relative to have better facilities than others, especially as the pot is at a low level so someone else would have to lose out to allow this.


    When we run out of means we all have to live according to the means we have and had a cheaper care home been chosen, private funding, meaning choice, could have gone on for longer.
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 17th Apr 17, 8:00 PM
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    Gavin83
    What I do know is that the relative cannot be moved more than three miles from where the NOK who has LPA lives.
    Originally posted by Tipsntreats
    You got any links to this? Never heard of such a rule before and seems totally unrealistic to me.

    OP, the LA is entitled to fund any care home placement within their borough as long as it meets the residents needs. They'll only be willing to pay more if no such home exists that accepts the council rate. There is also nothing that suggests they have to keep her in the same home. The care home manager shouldn't have told you what they did, there was no obligation for the LA to continue paying their rate even a decade ago.

    I'd suggest making sure she's claiming everything she can, look into CHC and get an assessment of needs carried out.

    For the record suggesting they can't be moved without a really good reason won't cut it, any elderly person doesn't move well. I do know when a care home closed and everyone had to be moved there was a certain percentage of residents who were expected to die from the move alone. It's excepted and the only way she won't be moved is if the home is willing to accept the council rate (I'd push the council harder to negotiate this, or a lower top up amount) or that home is the only one that can meet her needs.
    • mgdavid
    • By mgdavid 18th Apr 17, 9:27 PM
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    mgdavid
    If your mother being in this place means that much, have you explored the option of the family contributing the excess cost over the LA figure?
    A salary slave no more.....
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 18th Apr 17, 9:36 PM
    • 27,961 Posts
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    Mojisola
    Our mother had a brain tumour removed 6 plus years ago and this resulted in the need for her to receive nursing care. As my late father had been good with money and mother had a reasonable sum £500k it became obvious very quickly that mother would be self funding.
    Originally posted by Tony H
    For other people who find themselves in this situation with ready capital, it's really worth investigating annuities.

    As others have said, I'd be wanting an exact accounting of how all that money has been spent in such a short time - there's only so many 'extras' one person can make use of.
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 18th Apr 17, 10:59 PM
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    LilElvis

    As others have said, I'd be wanting an exact accounting of how all that money has been spent in such a short time - there's only so many 'extras' one person can make use of.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    At a cost of £4,600 per month for 6 years there should be a lot more left in the bank from a £500k cash sum plus the value of the house. Her pension of £600-£675 a week would have covered the bulk of the cost so where has several hundred thousand gone? The figures provided by the OP do not add up.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 19th Apr 17, 12:20 PM
    • 1,498 Posts
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    Red-Squirrel
    At a cost of £4,600 per month for 6 years there should be a lot more left in the bank from a £500k cash sum plus the value of the house. Her pension of £600-£675 a week would have covered the bulk of the cost so where has several hundred thousand gone? The figures provided by the OP do not add up.
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    The OP seems reluctant to answer this question, which has been asked by a few posters.
    • Tony H
    • By Tony H 25th Apr 17, 10:00 PM
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    • 424 Thanks
    Tony H
    I don't want to count my chickens before they have hatched, but here's an update.

    We sought legal advice and were told to write a letter to the LA outlining the lack of care and attention shown by them for situation. It was now our intention to submit a formal complaint to the ombudsman in order to seek resolve for our mothers situation.

    This caused the LA to instigate a "Best Interest" meeting with our mother, followed by a meeting with the LA, SS, Finance and the "Independent" Best Interest Member of Staff.

    We attended the meeting, which became obviously clear from the outset that there intention was to move mother in to alternative accommodation. It gave the Director of the LA the opportunity to hear our reasons behind not wanting our mother moved, and about the stability and care she has received at the Private Nursing Home. We expressed our concern that should they move her in to an alternative home, the staff might have to have her sectioned in order to protect their other clients.

    We also went in to greater detail about the failings of both the SS and the finance department.

    They stepped out of the meeting room in order to make further enquiries. When the Director returned they explained that they would "On this occasion" meet the cost for mother to stay where she is, subject to them being able to agree terms of contract with the Private Nursing Home.

    So, at this stage we are very close to resolving the situation. We just have to hope that the Private Nursing Home agree to reasonable annual charge increases.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    With respect "Court of Protection", the solicitor informed us that due to the nature of our situation it would have been the LA that would have had to apply in order to move mother to alternative accommodation. This was due to mother saying that she wanted / needed to stay, the Doctors letter stating it was in mothers best interest to stay and our insistence the it was in mothers best interest to stay.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    As so many of you are fanatical about money you'll be pleased to know that I got the figures wrong. Mothers pot including the house was just over £400k (not £500k) and the time period as stated was between 6 and 7 years. The cost of care stands at £4600 per month, and the Private Care Home have reduced this to £900 per week (£3900 per month).

    Fingers crossed a contract gets sorted without delay and we can get back to life!!!!
    • Jojo the Tightfisted
    • By Jojo the Tightfisted 25th Apr 17, 10:13 PM
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    Jojo the Tightfisted
    I think the 'fanaticism' was out of a genuine concern that the home could have been taking more than was necessary out of greed, not out of any criticism of you, OP. After all, they've reduced the fees pretty sharpish now - and I doubt that they're making a loss on her care in changing the fees (from £55K a year to c.£47k), out of altruism.
    I could dream to wide extremes, I could do or die: I could yawn and be withdrawn and watch the world go by.

    Yup you are officially Rock n Roll
    Originally posted by colinw
    • Lioness Twinkletoes
    • By Lioness Twinkletoes 26th Apr 17, 9:59 AM
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    Lioness Twinkletoes
    I won his case on Best Interest. The LA are now paying his over a thousand a WEEK fees.
    Originally posted by Tipsntreats
    This makes me very, very glad I (most likely) don't live within this LA.
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