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  • FIRST POST
    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 13th Apr 17, 12:35 PM
    • 44Posts
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    garythehutch
    Strange POPLA appeal decision
    • #1
    • 13th Apr 17, 12:35 PM
    Strange POPLA appeal decision 13th Apr 17 at 12:35 PM
    Hey everyone

    Just hoping to get some advice. I'll try and stick to the basics.

    I had an operation at hospital and the hospital called my Dad to let him know I was ready to be picked up. There was then a problem with finding my medication, so there was a delay.

    Now, my Dad was parked in a "drop-off" area. The sign in the area said there was 20 minutes free parking in this drop-off area. My Dad was concerned about how long they were taking, so told the receptionist that he only had 20 minutes. The receptionist said not to worry, and the nurse on my way out also told me not to worry because it was "their fault". The nurse actually told us to ignore any charge notice since it isn't legally binding, but I didn't think that was solid advice.

    My Dad then got hit with a fine, but not for a reason we thought. The cameras has the car entering and exiting 22 minutes apart. This is 2 minutes over the alloted time.

    So I called ParkingEye, and they said there is no 20 minute parking at this hopsital and she had the signage of the hospital on a database. I dismissed this but went to the hospital to take a picture of the sign regardless to include in my appeal.

    I also noted that apparently there is a 10 minute grace period, so technically 22 minutes (if that's even accurate, the evidence shown is sketchy at best) would still be acceptable. The appeal also mentioned that the hospital told us not to worry about it. It was, expectedly, unsuccessful.

    I then appealed to POPLA, and this is where it gets really bizarre. ParkingEye gave POPLA the same signage documentaiton that the lady on the phone originally read out to me... and it didn't include the 20 minute free parking sign. I included my picture, and thought this would help in my case.

    POPLA have rejected the appeal... not because of the "fact" the car was there for 22 minutes and not 20, but because there was no proof that the picture I took of the sign belonged to that hospital AND there is no designated drop-off area at all (there is!).

    My question is, what options do I have? I don't mind paying the fee on behalf of my Dad, but it's the principle of it. It seems that the out of date signage they provided, and the incorrect info ParkingEye has provided has took precidence over fact.

    What are my options? Can I appeal to the hopsital? I went to the hopsital in person when I took the photo and they said I would need to go to POPLA, but obviously I ended up getting rejected in the end.

    Do I need to take a video of the drop off zone, the 20 minute sign, and then the sign for the hospital to prove that it is in that hospital? I'm totally at a loss.
Page 1
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 13th Apr 17, 1:00 PM
    • 2,474 Posts
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    DoaM
    • #2
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:00 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:00 PM
    The options are to pay and be done with it (we don't agree with this option), or ignore any and all further correspondence from Parking Eye or debt collectors ... except do not ignore a real Letter Before Claim or actual court papers.

    Did you take the photo on your phone?
    Does your phone have location history enabled? (Most Android phones have Google location enabled by default)
    Can you check your location history (link assumes Google/Android) and correlate location to the date/time of the photo?

    If you can then you can probably prove that the photo was taken at the hospital in question. POPLA have basically said you're lying.

    But yes - you should raise a complaint with PALS at the hospital and demand they get the PCN cancelled.
    Last edited by DoaM; 13-04-2017 at 1:02 PM.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 13th Apr 17, 1:07 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    garythehutch
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:07 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:07 PM
    Thanks for the helpful reply! :-)

    Because it's my Dad's car, I think he'd be nervous of ignoring anything. I kind of want to get it sorted for him to be honest, and I know paying is an option - which I have pondered but at the same time I think it is scandalous.

    I have an iPhone and I'm sure location is on there, but I'm more than willing to go and get another photo if necessary... or a video.

    Who is PALS? I have been looking on this forum and one guy at North Tyneside hospital (this one is Sunderland Royal - which isn't far away) emailed the facilities manager. Is that the same thing?
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 13th Apr 17, 1:10 PM
    • 2,474 Posts
    • 2,480 Thanks
    DoaM
    • #4
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:10 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:10 PM
    PALS
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 13th Apr 17, 1:12 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    garythehutch
    • #5
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:12 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:12 PM
    Ah, got it. Thanks. I've got the email address for the relevant PALS. Do you recommend using a particular template to send this?
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 13th Apr 17, 1:33 PM
    • 3,605 Posts
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    Half_way
    • #6
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:33 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:33 PM
    put something up here to let others check it
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 13th Apr 17, 1:43 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    garythehutch
    • #7
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:43 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Apr 17, 1:43 PM
    This is what I've drafted. Thoughts? The bits in red are dates and details I need to clarify when I am home
    ----------------------------
    Dear PALS Sunderland Royal

    I am writing to you in on behalf of my father, who is in great distress due to what we firmly believe is an unfair parking charge. In a nutshell, we have essentially been called liars throughout the appeal process and we would like this putting right. As you are the landowner, I think it is fair to request that you arrange for this parking fine to be cancelled.

    To give you some background.

    On xx January 2017, I had an operation at the Surgical Day Case unit 5. I arranged with the front desk that my father would be the one to collect me. When myoperation was finished and I had recovered, the nurse kindly called my father to let him know I should be ready to pick up (in about 15-20 minutes). My father made the journey from Washington to the hospital and parked in the designated “pickup/dropoff area”.

    Unfortunately, when he arrived, the receptionist informed him that there was a delay in discharging me due to some missing medication. He quickly advised that he only had 20 minutes. The receptionist told him “not to worry”, that it “shouldn’t be too much longer”. During this time, my father sent me a text message advising of this. I explained to the nurse who was caring for me of the situation. The nurse said (and I’m paraphrasing) “Tell him not to worry, and anyway, those are just invoices. They don’t hold any legal weight”.

    On XXX 2017, my father received a letter from ParkingEye Ltd advising him that he had a parking charge due to non-payment.

    I called ParkingEye and the advisor told me she had a record of all of the signage at this site, and also told me two things:

    • That there is NO designated pick-up/drop-off zone at Surgical Day Care 5.
    • There is NO sign to suggest 20 minutes free parking.

    I went to the hospital on 27th February to take a photo of the sign.

    I then appealed this with ParkingEye. My appeal was, unsurprisingly, unsuccessful. I then appealed to POPLA. My appeal to POPLA was unsuccessful because:

    • ParkingEye advised there is NO designated pick-up/drop-off zone at Surgical Day Care 5.
    • The picture that was taken by me, showing the 20 minute drop-off sign, while noted, did not prove it was in Sunderland.

    For absolute clarity, I now include a video showing:

    • The Sunderland Royal Hospital Entrance
    • The 20 minute free drop-off sign
    • The actual pick-up/drop-off area itself.

    I would also like to add some points. This has caused my father lots of undue stress, who at 60 years old, does not need this kind of stress. He was honest with your staff about his concerns over waiting and was ensured not to worry. Instead he has received months of worry whilst going through this appeal process. We have been called liars by ParkingEye, who should clearly know which signs they have in your hospitals.

    I would also like to add that, as we are both taxpayers and contribute to the NHS, that companies such as ParkingEye and their dishonest and reprehensible do not belong on NHS premises

    Yours faithfully
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Apr 17, 6:37 PM
    • 47,000 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 13th Apr 17, 6:37 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Apr 17, 6:37 PM
    I seem to recall Sunderland Hospitals were quite good at cancelling these PCNs and this is urgent, as the POPLA appeal was lost. PE will be shaping up to sue but if they've provided false evidence to POPLA about this location and signage then you need to stand firm and attack this robustly, before letting a court claim arrive.

    Here is how to complain:

    http://chsft.nhs.uk/patients-and-visitors/complaints-and-compliments/

    And I would email ParkingEye (in the name of the keeper/appellant) and inform them that you have made a formal complaint to the NHS Trust because this site DOES have a 20 minute drop-off zone and their evidence misled POPLA.

    Then attach your proof (video would be good) to demand PE get lost or you will be showing your evidence to your MP and the DVLA as well as the BPA:

    enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

    Be really robust and quick with this one and reply to any ParkingEye email, demanding they cancel (again and again).

    Your complaint is good (I would remove the repetition of the word 'stress' in one sentence near the end, change it to distress or upset). And make the end stronger:
    I would also like to add that, as we are both taxpayers and contribute to the NHS, that companies such as ParkingEye and their dishonest and reprehensible money-grabbing punitive agenda, do not belong on NHS premises. Indeed - as your Board has no doubt realised but presumably you are stuck with the contract due to someone signing up with ParkingEye for years for your patients and staff to be bled dry - the nasty ANPR camera operation you have allowed here, flagrantly disregards the interests of patients/visitors and staff alike.

    Further, this oppressive and aggressive regime flies in the face of the Government's published NHS Car Parking Principles, published some 3 or 4 years ago and further updated to all NHS Trusts in this Health Memorandum:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-car-parking-management-htm-07-03

    Sunderland NHS Trust has failed in terms of due diligence with this contract and you have allowed this unsupported, greedy regime to continue, effectively allowing a private company to leech money from patients, staff and visitors with threats of court (and ParkingEye are notoriously litigious). How dare the NHS Trust allow this situation to arise against the Government's clear policy? How exactly do you defend the false 'evidence' that your agent has provided to POPLA to win an appeal against us? What are you going to do to right this wrong for us, and in the long term remove this nasty threat from all sites?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 13-04-2017 at 6:54 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 13th Apr 17, 7:45 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    garythehutch
    • #9
    • 13th Apr 17, 7:45 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Apr 17, 7:45 PM
    Wow, great response. I'll get right on this tomorrow!

    Thank you so much! I'll keep you updated!
    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 14th Apr 17, 12:53 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    garythehutch
    Guys

    The plot thickens. I've just been down to the hospital to take my video and the sign stating there is a free drop-off zone has even taken down! I'm gobsmacked and disgusted.

    I have taken a video and photos regardless as you can still see the wall plugs where the sign was once screwed into.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Apr 17, 3:32 PM
    • 47,000 Posts
    • 60,369 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Can you prove the date of the first photos you took for POPLA, from the metadata?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 14th Apr 17, 3:43 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    garythehutch
    Yes I can. POPLA even acknowledged the photo, and now the NHS will see a video (and photo) with the wall plugs.

    It's so blatantly fraudulent, I'm so disgusted.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Apr 17, 4:36 PM
    • 39,252 Posts
    • 78,424 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Yes I can. POPLA even acknowledged the photo, and now the NHS will see a video (and photo) with the wall plugs.

    It's so blatantly fraudulent, I'm so disgusted.
    Originally posted by garythehutch
    Are there any signs at all now where the vehicle was parked?

    You need to highlight this to the local and national press, as well as your MP, Mrs May, and Andrew Jones MP. The latter thinks the unregulated private parking system is run in a fair and proper fashion.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-04-2017 at 4:38 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

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    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Apr 17, 4:47 PM
    • 47,000 Posts
    • 60,369 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes I can. POPLA even acknowledged the photo, and now the NHS will see a video (and photo) with the wall plugs.

    It's so blatantly fraudulent, I'm so disgusted.
    Originally posted by garythehutch
    We join you in your disgust. It appears PE have removed the signs since your POPLA appeal. Shocking and well worth pointing out to Andrew Jones MP, Marcus Jones MP, your local MP and Mrs May. This is not on.

    The Supreme Court supported this lot. Shame on this Country for the way they still quash the ordinary man.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 14th Apr 17, 5:10 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    garythehutch
    Are there any signs at all now where the vehicle was parked?
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Just the original tariff sign, which was directly underneath the free 20 minutes sign.

    I've sent the email to ParkingEye informing them of the DVLA, BPA, press - and informed them I have gone to the NHS and lodged a formal complaint and my MP is aware - all of which is true.

    I want to thank everyone for their support with this. I have let my Dad know also. He is equally as disgusted.

    I'll keep everyone updated.

    Here is the final email I sent to PALS, with MP coped in:

    Dear PALS Sunderland Royal


    ParkingEye: xxx
    POPLA: xxx


    I am writing to you in on behalf of my father, who is in great distress due to what we firmly believe is an unfair parking charge. In a nutshell, we have essentially been called liars throughout the appeal process and we would like this putting right. As you are the landowner, I think it is fair to request that you arrange for this parking fine to be cancelled. Based on the evidence I am about to provide you, I would be astonished if you didn’t find the dishonest and deceitful tactics of your parking contractor abhorrent.


    I have also included my local MP, Sharon Hodgson, who I hope will also find the details of the deceit in this case a cause for concern for the people she represents in government.

    To give you some background.

    On 4th January 2017, I had an operation at the Surgical Day Case Unit at Sunderland Royal Hospital. I arranged with the front desk that my father would be the one to collect me. When my operation was finished and I had recovered, the nurse kindly called my father to let him know I should be ready to pick up (in about 15-20 minutes). My father made the journey from Washington to the hospital and parked in the designated “pickup/dropoff area”.

    Unfortunately, when he arrived, the receptionist informed him that there was a delay in discharging me due to some missing medication. He quickly advised that he only had 20 minutes in the car park. The receptionist told him “not to worry”, that it “shouldn’t be too much longer”. During this time, my father sent me a text message advising of this. I explained to the nurse who was caring for me of the situation. The nurse said (and I’m paraphrasing) “Tell him not to worry, and anyway, those are just invoices. They don’t hold any legal weight”.

    In a letter dated 19th January 2017, my father received notice from ParkingEye Ltd advising him that he had a parking charge due to non-payment of parking. However, it contained a bribe that would mean only paying £40 if this was paid within 14 days.


    A follow up letter on dated the 23rd February followed, advising that the full amount of £70.00 was due.

    I called ParkingEye and the advisor told me she had a record of all of the signage at this site, and also told me two things:


    1. That there is NO designated pick-up/drop-off zone at Surgical Day Care Unit.
    2. There is NO sign to suggest 20 minutes free parking.

    I went to the hospital on 27th February to take a photo of the sign. Please find this attached (originalsign.jpeg)

    I then appealed this with ParkingEye. My appeal was, unsurprisingly, unsuccessful. I then appealed to POPLA. My appeal to POPLA was unsuccessful because:


    1. ParkingEye advised there is NO designated pick-up/drop-off zone at Surgical Day Care Unit.
    2. The picture that was taken by me, showing the 20 minute drop-off sign, while noted, did not prove it was in Sunderland.

    I now felt like I had to make even more effort to prove my father’s innocence. Today, 14th April 2017, I travelled to Sunderland Royal Hospital with the intention of taking a video of the sign and other signage to prove that this was indeed Sunderland Royal Hospital. When I got there, I was absolutely appalled, and disgusted, to find that the sign had been removed. Clearly, this is a result of my appeal – with essentially the smoking gun being removed. I am sickened and appalled, and my father is extremely upset about this act of deceit by ParkingEye and/or the NHS.


    I have therefore attached two further items. I have attached a photo of where the sign used to be where wall plugs can clearly be seen where the sign once was (removedsign.jpeg) and a video showing this – just in case ParkingEye try to pull another scam upon hearing of this complaint (locationproofvideo.mov)

    I would also like to add some points. This has caused my father lots of undue stress, who at 60 years old, does not need this kind of upset. He was honest with your staff about his concerns over waiting and was ensured not to worry. Instead he has received months of worry whilst going through this appeal process. We have been called liars by ParkingEye, who should clearly know which signs they have in your hospitals.

    I would also like to add that, as we are both taxpayers and contribute to the NHS, that companies such as ParkingEye and their dishonest and reprehensible money-grabbing punitive agenda, do not belong on NHS premises. Indeed - as your Board has no doubt realised but presumably you are stuck with the contract due to someone signing up with ParkingEye for years for your patients and staff to be bled dry - the nasty ANPR camera operation you have allowed here, flagrantly disregards the interests of patients/visitors and staff alike.

    Further, this oppressive and aggressive regime flies in the face of the Government's published NHS Car Parking Principles, published some 3 or 4 years ago and further updated to all NHS Trusts in this Health Memorandum:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-car-parking-management-htm-07-03


    Sunderland NHS Trust has failed in terms of due diligence with this contract and you have allowed this unsupported, greedy regime to continue, effectively allowing a private company to leech money from patients, staff and visitors with threats of court (and ParkingEye are notoriously litigious). How dare the NHS Trust allow this situation to arise against the Government's clear policy? How exactly do you defend the false 'evidence' that your agent has provided to POPLA to win an appeal against us? What are you going to do to right this wrong for us, and in the long term remove this nasty threat from all sites?
    I look forward to your reply and a clear decision that this parking charge will be, rightfully, fully and completely cancelled and a full investigation into this matter with ParkingEye will take place.

    Yours faithfully





    Here is the final email I sent to ParkingEye immediately after.
    ParkingEye

    I am writing to you in relation to the following case:
    ParkingEye: xxx
    POPLA: xxx

    You will note that this appeal has been lost by myself, the appellant.

    I would like to inform you formally that due to the misleading, dishonest evidence you provided to POPLA, and the further evidence I have uncovered today that suggests my evidence has been hidden (sign taken away), I (via my son) have written to the NHS Trust, and my MP in relation to this matter as a formal complaint.

    I will also be showing this evidence to the DVLA and BPA, as well as the press.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Apr 17, 6:23 PM
    • 13,200 Posts
    • 20,629 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Well expressed letter of disgust to the Trust via PALS. Keep us posted on progress.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • garythehutch
    • By garythehutch 18th Apr 17, 8:45 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    garythehutch
    No reply yet, which is expected since it's been a bank holiday - but I did have one question - do you think I have a good chance of this getting quashed by the NHS?
    • liviboy
    • By liviboy 18th Apr 17, 9:12 PM
    • 318 Posts
    • 95 Thanks
    liviboy
    Can Google Streetview, whilst not being the best quality of image, demonstrate your original photo shows what was on display? Having a quick look there are loads of "20 minute" drop off signs...
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Apr 17, 9:15 PM
    • 47,000 Posts
    • 60,369 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No reply yet, which is expected since it's been a bank holiday - but I did have one question - do you think I have a good chance of this getting quashed by the NHS?
    Originally posted by garythehutch
    Yes (although post-POPLA it's rare to see PE back down). But I don't expect PE will want this one tested before a small claims court!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Apr 17, 9:20 PM
    • 13,200 Posts
    • 20,629 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    No reply yet, which is expected since it's been a bank holiday - but I did have one question - do you think I have a good chance of this getting quashed by the NHS?
    Originally posted by garythehutch
    I've been found wanting too many times in forecasting anything, whether it's on investments, foreign currency speculation, the FA Cup. The Grand National ........ or how appeals, wherever in the private parking arena, might pan out. There's good evidence that PALS are, as a rule, on the side of the motorist/patient, but there will always be some exceptions to disprove the rule, like those whose only interest in getting off their backsides is to go for their next coffee break.

    There's one forecast I can make though - I know who's going to win the upcoming general election - shhhhhh!

    Need to get my postal vote sorted!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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