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  • FIRST POST
    • barbiedoll
    • By barbiedoll 13th Apr 17, 10:19 AM
    • 4,802Posts
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    barbiedoll
    Yellow box fine
    • #1
    • 13th Apr 17, 10:19 AM
    Yellow box fine 13th Apr 17 at 10:19 AM
    I've just received (and paid) a penalty charge for being in a yellow box junction.

    I remember when it happened, it is a notorious junction and there have been warnings all over our local FB group about the cameras. I use the road several times a week and am aware of the rules.

    However, on the day of the incident, the road wasn't particularly busy, the car in front of me moved forward with plenty of room for both her and I to clear the yellow box. She decided to stop just after the box, with (at least) a clear car length between her and the car in front of hers. Because she didn't move forward, the back end of mine was caught on camera in the box, hence the fine. I did beep her several times and she eventually moved forward a couple of feet, but too late for me, unfortunately.

    As I've said, I've paid the fine, it's a fair cop and all that. But would I have had grounds for appeal? I know I was supposed to wait until my exit was clear but in everyday driving conditions, you don't expect a halfwit to stop, knowing full well that someone was behind her, leaving me to pick up the tab for her stupidity.

    What a lovely start to my Easter break!
    "I may be many things but not being indiscreet isn't one of them"
Page 1
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 13th Apr 17, 10:22 AM
    • 3,591 Posts
    • 3,635 Thanks
    DoaM
    • #2
    • 13th Apr 17, 10:22 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Apr 17, 10:22 AM
    It's a common scenario but it's also an absolute offence - stopping in a yellow box. There are no mitigating circumstances (except waiting to turn right where allowed).

    Would you have had grounds for appeal? Possibly. But here's not the best place for such a question ... Pepipoo deal with such queries far better than we can.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 13th Apr 17, 11:08 AM
    • 3,214 Posts
    • 4,643 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 17, 11:08 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 17, 11:08 AM
    I've paid the fine, it's a fair cop and all that. But would I have had grounds for appeal?
    Originally posted by barbiedoll
    If you've paid, that's an end to it. You should have appealed first. Too late now.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 13th Apr 17, 11:16 AM
    • 2,588 Posts
    • 3,850 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #4
    • 13th Apr 17, 11:16 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Apr 17, 11:16 AM
    As you have rightly stated, you shouldn't enter the box unless your exit is clear, the fact that Mrs. Halfwit didn't fill the gap is no defence, and as you have paid up that's the end of it.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 13th Apr 17, 2:10 PM
    • 752 Posts
    • 1,396 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #5
    • 13th Apr 17, 2:10 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Apr 17, 2:10 PM
    In theory, had you been supplied with video, you may have been able to appeal it. The requirement is that the exit is clear on entering the box and (arguably) if the moving traffic had continued moving you would have cleared it. This, of course, depends on that being genuinely evident from the video, rather than "I could have avoided it if everyone else drove bumper to bumper." The usual basis for an appeal is if another car cuts into the traffic, forcing you to remain where you are.

    As others have said, right turns are excluded - but even then, only in specific circumstances. It should also be noted that roundabouts and gyratory systems are not right turns and the box will always apply.

    At least you will have got prompt payment discount....
    • barbiedoll
    • By barbiedoll 14th Apr 17, 8:34 AM
    • 4,802 Posts
    • 13,204 Thanks
    barbiedoll
    • #6
    • 14th Apr 17, 8:34 AM
    • #6
    • 14th Apr 17, 8:34 AM
    In theory, had you been supplied with video, you may have been able to appeal it. The requirement is that the exit is clear on entering the box and (arguably) if the moving traffic had continued moving you would have cleared it. This, of course, depends on that being genuinely evident from the video, rather than "I could have avoided it if everyone else drove bumper to bumper." The usual basis for an appeal is if another car cuts into the traffic, forcing you to remain where you are.


    At least you will have got prompt payment discount....
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    Everyone else does drive "bumper to bumper"....there is a set of lights just down the road for a supermarket underground car park and a pedestrian crossing. There is a clear view of these and you have to time your entry into the box junction very carefully to make sure that you will clear it when behind the cars waiting at the lights. Which I would have if Ms Halfwit hadn't randomly stopped too early!

    No video sadly....I wonder if it would have picked up my wild gesticulations and frantic horn beeping?

    Yes...only £65 as a reward for coughing up early. I thought an appeal would be tenuous at best, just wondered if anyone else had bothered (and won!)

    Have bookmarked Pepipoo for future reference though!
    "I may be many things but not being indiscreet isn't one of them"
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 14th Apr 17, 8:45 AM
    • 2,005 Posts
    • 2,531 Thanks
    unforeseen
    • #7
    • 14th Apr 17, 8:45 AM
    • #7
    • 14th Apr 17, 8:45 AM
    I treat yellow boxes the same as level crossings. If there is not a car's length to get into at the other side then i don't move
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Apr 17, 3:45 PM
    • 51,886 Posts
    • 65,532 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 14th Apr 17, 3:45 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Apr 17, 3:45 PM
    Should have appealed, with pepipoo forumites' help.

    I got a family member off a YBJ penalty last year and he was 'bang to rights'. I told him we would probably win because TFL would probably muck up and not supply the stuff I asked for in the appeal. I wrote two pages of challenge, threw everything including the kitchen sink at it - plus quoted other cases - and they missed some of my points altogether and promised to send some evidence then dropped the ball and forgot to send it (measurements of the YBJ, I think).

    So they pulled out before adjudication because they had promised to send something then didn't. I argued he was disadvantaged by that 'procedural impropriety' and also pointed out the fact they sent him an old PATAS appeal form with the old PATAS address on it, caused his PATAS appeal almost to miss the boat as it was returned to him 'wrong address'. So I fired off a rant about that to TFL and copied in PATAS. Typical shoddy response from TFL, won the day.

    Most Council PCNs can be appealed successfully, YBJ ones are certainly worth a try. Next time!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 14-04-2017 at 3:51 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • barbiedoll
    • By barbiedoll 15th Apr 17, 2:05 PM
    • 4,802 Posts
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    barbiedoll
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 17, 2:05 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 17, 2:05 PM
    I must admit, I like your thinking, Coupon-mad.

    I was annoyed at the fact that this wasn't due to me being thoughtless, or driving like a tw@t. I think that I would seriously consider a challenge next time, if circumstances were similar.

    Thanks to all who replied...and for the Pepipoo tip-off!
    "I may be many things but not being indiscreet isn't one of them"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Apr 17, 3:25 PM
    • 51,886 Posts
    • 65,532 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    ''Procedural impropriety'' wins for the appellant in most Council cases you read about on pepipoo! Two wrongs don't make a right and the Councils' conduct is often worse than the driver's mistake.

    My view is ALWAYS to appeal a Council PCN.

    I won one for a colleague the other week, earned myself a bottle of white wine for writing her appeal. Easy one in that case, not a YBJ, a pay-by-phone parking issue. Several grounds for appeal but Worthing Council rejected at first, like TFL did.

    Always ignore the 'discount' bribe, stick to your guns, get pepipoo advice and never let the first rejection put you off!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-04-2017 at 3:27 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jayu619
    • By jayu619 3rd Dec 17, 3:49 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    jayu619
    Should have appealed, with pepipoo forumites' help.

    I got a family member off a YBJ penalty last year and he was 'bang to rights'. I told him we would probably win because TFL would probably muck up and not supply the stuff I asked for in the appeal. I wrote two pages of challenge, threw everything including the kitchen sink at it - plus quoted other cases - and they missed some of my points altogether and promised to send some evidence then dropped the ball and forgot to send it (measurements of the YBJ, I think).

    So they pulled out before adjudication because they had promised to send something then didn't. I argued he was disadvantaged by that 'procedural impropriety' and also pointed out the fact they sent him an old PATAS appeal form with the old PATAS address on it, caused his PATAS appeal almost to miss the boat as it was returned to him 'wrong address'. So I fired off a rant about that to TFL and copied in PATAS. Typical shoddy response from TFL, won the day.

    Most Council PCNs can be appealed successfully, YBJ ones are certainly worth a try. Next time!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Hi Coupon-Mad

    I was just scouring MSE forum for suggestions as to ways I could get a YBJ PCN appealed. May I ask what kind f things you wrote in your appeal? I've attached a link to the video clip the council have on file.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pR7p7pbyO8

    I've only went into the YBJ because my exit was clear - on the right had the car to my left moved over to his lane so I can place myself next to him.

    Will I be able to challenge the PCN?

    Many thanks,
    Jay
    • jayu619
    • By jayu619 3rd Dec 17, 3:53 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    jayu619
    Or should I start a new thread?
    Thanks
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 3rd Dec 17, 4:35 PM
    • 1,186 Posts
    • 1,230 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yes, as that’s what you agreed to do.
    Better go to pepipoo and sign up there, use gmail.
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