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  • FIRST POST
    • collectors
    • By collectors 12th Apr 17, 1:29 PM
    • 49Posts
    • 15Thanks
    collectors
    Why do we pay council workers Pension ???
    • #1
    • 12th Apr 17, 1:29 PM
    Why do we pay council workers Pension ??? 12th Apr 17 at 1:29 PM
    Hi, can someone say why do we pay council workers pension. I be-leave I'm right in saying that around around 1/3 "& rising"of what we pay in council tax goes to council staff like office workers, dustbin men & women & so on. I have no problem with the workers who signed up for this as i am sure i would have done the same, but why are our rates being used for this. I don't get a pension subsidized like this, why should these workers get it with a massive loss to our local areas help & maintenance. These workers get a state pension on top of this as well. Its certainly wrong.
Page 4
    • longleggedhair
    • By longleggedhair 16th Apr 17, 12:15 PM
    • 248 Posts
    • 330 Thanks
    longleggedhair
    To give some context to this, a family member worked in local government for 30 years, when she retired she was earning about 25 k. Her pension is around 650 per month after Tax. its decent but not enormous.

    However the new scheme has allowed another relative to build up an annual pension of £3000 per annum after just six years on a similar wage. The new scheme which is supposed to save money seems far more generous and I think it will build up problems for the future.
    • Silvertabby
    • By Silvertabby 16th Apr 17, 1:14 PM
    • 1,662 Posts
    • 1,995 Thanks
    Silvertabby
    To give some context to this, a family member worked in local government for 30 years, when she retired she was earning about 25 k. Her pension is around 650 per month after Tax. its decent but not enormous.

    However the new scheme has allowed another relative to build up an annual pension of £3000 per annum after just six years on a similar wage. The new scheme which is supposed to save money seems far more generous and I think it will build up problems for the future.
    The CARE scheme will indeed give a better return for some people - ie, those who stay in the same job, on the same pay scale, for the whole of their careers.

    Those who will miss out the most will be the apprentice/office junior who works their way up to senior manager.
    • Teaandscones
    • By Teaandscones 16th Apr 17, 1:57 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    Teaandscones
    To give some context to this, a family member worked in local government for 30 years, when she retired she was earning about 25 k. Her pension is around 650 per month after Tax. its decent but not enormous.

    However the new scheme has allowed another relative to build up an annual pension of £3000 per annum after just six years on a similar wage. The new scheme which is supposed to save money seems far more generous and I think it will build up problems for the future.
    Originally posted by longleggedhair
    The new scheme is at State Pension Age rather than age 60 (which was the case under the old scheme for many people), but it is based on 1/49ths rather than 1/80ths. I don't believe the current accrual rate can last, but there is a mechanism for this to be reviewed on a regular basis, so I would expect the accrual rate to increase from April 2019 onwards.
    • kidmugsy
    • By kidmugsy 16th Apr 17, 1:58 PM
    • 9,669 Posts
    • 6,424 Thanks
    kidmugsy
    the bulk of our pensions are from our joint 50+ years of service in the Armed Forces. We made our choices, you made yours.
    Originally posted by Silvertabby
    I'm not arguing with someone who knows how to use a machine gun.
    • Silvertabby
    • By Silvertabby 16th Apr 17, 2:09 PM
    • 1,662 Posts
    • 1,995 Thanks
    Silvertabby
    “ the bulk of our pensions are from our joint 50+ years of service in the Armed Forces. We made our choices, you made yours.
    Originally posted by Silvertabby
    I'm not arguing with someone who knows how to use a machine gun.
    No machine gun - just the SA80 rifle and a pistol!
    • BobQ
    • By BobQ 16th Apr 17, 2:36 PM
    • 9,726 Posts
    • 12,672 Thanks
    BobQ
    The new scheme is at State Pension Age rather than age 60 (which was the case under the old scheme for many people), but it is based on 1/49ths rather than 1/80ths. I don't believe the current accrual rate can last, but there is a mechanism for this to be reviewed on a regular basis, so I would expect the accrual rate to increase from April 2019 onwards.
    Originally posted by Teaandscones
    Yes but you are not comparing like with like.

    Under the old scheme someone left with a pension based on 1/80 of their FS multiplied by the years worked. So if they started work earning say 15000 and got pay rises that took them to a FS of 25000 it did not matter what they earned in previous years before they retired, their pension would be 25000/80 multiplied by the years worked

    Under the new scheme if they started at 15000 in year 1 the pension from year 1 would be 15000/49. If the next year they were paid 15500, that year would be 15500/49.

    Now it is a little more complicated than this but the principle is that in each year you earn a bit of pension based on your current salary so matches career average earnings.

    The CARE pension is not going to better a FS pension over a comparable period ending at 60 in most cases. But in some cases it may better. For example for someone whose salary stays the same and they work longer.

    The question is whether someone with a manual job like say a catering assistant, or park keeper is still going to be in the public sector in the long term and if they are will they still be capable of working until they are 70.

    I agree that the LGPS will change although its more likely the contribution rate will increase rather than the accrual rate fall. The strategy will be to price the lower paid out of the scheme and into a DC scheme with lower contributions.
    Last edited by BobQ; 16-04-2017 at 2:53 PM.
    Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.
    • molerat
    • By molerat 16th Apr 17, 5:11 PM
    • 17,091 Posts
    • 11,245 Thanks
    molerat
    No machine gun - just the SA80 rifle and a pistol!
    Originally posted by Silvertabby
    What ! No Sterling SMG , L1A1 SLR, Lee Enfield .303 (and converted to .22) or Bren Gun ?
    www.helpforheroes.org.uk/donations.html
    • Cash-Cows
    • By Cash-Cows 16th Apr 17, 5:23 PM
    • 160 Posts
    • 111 Thanks
    Cash-Cows
    The new scheme is at State Pension Age rather than age 60 (which was the case under the old scheme for many people), but it is based on 1/49ths rather than 1/80ths. I don't believe the current accrual rate can last, but there is a mechanism for this to be reviewed on a regular basis, so I would expect the accrual rate to increase from April 2019 onwards.
    Originally posted by Teaandscones
    When it was an 80th there was also a tax free lump sum. Now with the 49th there is no lump sum. You can buy the lump sum back and I seemed to recall that it works out approximately the same as the old 80th scheme if you do.
    • Silvertabby
    • By Silvertabby 16th Apr 17, 7:04 PM
    • 1,662 Posts
    • 1,995 Thanks
    Silvertabby
    “ No machine gun - just the SA80 rifle and a pistol!
    Originally posted by Silvertabby
    What ! No Sterling SMG , L1A1 SLR, Lee Enfield .303 (and converted to .22) or Bren Gun ? Posted by molerat
    You're right - Sterling SMG (Smudge) when we girlies became combatant /weapon trained in the early 1980s - but I didn't count that as a machine gun as we were only allowed to fire it single shot! I did try the SLR but, as I'm only a little over 5 foot tall, the stock was too long to fit into my shoulder. The .303 was just a little before my time. When we converted from the Sterling to the SA80, I was told that ladies like me (hint: I'll never fall flat on my face!) had an unfair advantage over the males when firing prone - because I had my own built-in supports. You needed a very good sense of humour to be a female in the Armed Forces before PC kicked in!
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    Last edited by Silvertabby; 16-04-2017 at 7:14 PM.
    • GunJack
    • By GunJack 16th Apr 17, 7:25 PM
    • 9,794 Posts
    • 7,295 Thanks
    GunJack
    silvertabby - what with molerat's 15Sqn badge, you, him and me ought to start a MSE sub-group
    ......Gettin' There, Wherever There is......
    • Silvertabby
    • By Silvertabby 16th Apr 17, 7:32 PM
    • 1,662 Posts
    • 1,995 Thanks
    Silvertabby
    silvertabby - what with molerat's 15Sqn badge, you, him and me ought to start a MSE sub-group
    Happy memories - what did you do? I was Pers Admin.
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    Last edited by Silvertabby; 16-04-2017 at 8:48 PM.
    • BobQ
    • By BobQ 16th Apr 17, 10:19 PM
    • 9,726 Posts
    • 12,672 Thanks
    BobQ
    When it was an 80th there was also a tax free lump sum. Now with the 49th there is no lump sum. You can buy the lump sum back and I seemed to recall that it works out approximately the same as the old 80th scheme if you do.
    Originally posted by Cash-Cows
    1/80ths plus lumpsum work out about the same as 1/60th in a FS scheme.

    1/49th is not a multiplier for a final salary based pension. It is the accrual rate on an annual basis for a career average scheme. So if someone spends 10 years in one grade and is then promoted to another their pension will be based partly on 1/49ths of a lower salary and partly on 1/49ths of a higher salary. So you cannot say that 1/49th is similar to 1/80ths.

    Many CARE schemes (although probably not the LGPS one) will have savings for the employer if the employee gets a few promotions over their career compared to a FS scheme.
    Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.
    • GunJack
    • By GunJack 16th Apr 17, 11:34 PM
    • 9,794 Posts
    • 7,295 Thanks
    GunJack
    Happy memories - what did you do? I was Pers Admin.
    Save
    Originally posted by Silvertabby
    Avionics, still do (CS, now industry, still supporting RAF)
    ......Gettin' There, Wherever There is......
    • Silvertabby
    • By Silvertabby 17th Apr 17, 8:59 AM
    • 1,662 Posts
    • 1,995 Thanks
    Silvertabby
    Mr S was Eng Tech AE, then CS IT, now (like me) happily retired.
    • Acquinas
    • By Acquinas 18th Apr 17, 2:27 PM
    • 113 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    Acquinas
    This is a resprise of a couple of old themes which essentially come down to this: (1) "why don't we get all public services without having to pay for them?" and (2) "it's not fair that my pension scheme isn't as good as that of a bunch of other people whose job I can't or wouldn't do".
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