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  • FIRST POST
    • JoshyBoy
    • By JoshyBoy 11th Apr 17, 2:39 PM
    • 102Posts
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    JoshyBoy
    Overstating how much you earn when applying for a job.
    • #1
    • 11th Apr 17, 2:39 PM
    Overstating how much you earn when applying for a job. 11th Apr 17 at 2:39 PM
    Can overstating your salary come back and bite you in your backside, when you start a new job?
Page 3
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 18th Apr 17, 10:38 AM
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I don't really see how this links to either of the two previous posts we made. Or are you suggesting I'm an idiot who lies to himself because you can't answer the question and therefore have to resort to unfounded insults and false statements?

    I genuinely don't see how you see honesty as a bad quality, after all that's basically what we're talking about here. I could see why it wouldn't bother someone either way but that isn't what you said.

    It's just such a pointless thing to lie about and currently no one has really given any justification as to why it's worth the stress of lying about it. Unless they're applying for a job with you of course.

    I'd put it on par with someone telling you they're 32 when they're actually 34. Not exactly a serious lie but I'd be questioning why they bothered.
    Originally posted by Gavin83
    People bother because by exaggerating your salary by 2K, you start on 2K more at the new company than you otherwise would.

    What is idiotic is assuming that people don't constantly and routinely lie about things like this. Anyone who tells you they never lie is lying.

    People who don't have the resourcefulness to bump their current salary up a little in negotiations are likely not be very resourceful at all.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 18th Apr 17, 11:31 AM
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    Nick_C

    People who don't have the resourcefulness to bump their current salary up a little in negotiations are likely not be very resourceful at all.
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    Maybe they should lie about their qualifications as well. And their experience.

    Why go to uni and get a degree when you can just pretend you have one.

    What is it you sell? Used cars or mobile phones?
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 18th Apr 17, 11:33 AM
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    Maybe they should lie about their qualifications as well. And their experience.

    Why go to uni and get a degree when you can just pretend you have one.

    What is it you sell? Used cars or mobile phones?
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    I work in software development. Everyone exaggerates their salaries.

    If you want to pretend that doesn't happen, the only loser is going to be you. Employers will assume you are anyway and negotiate accordingly.

    Of course if you don't work in an industry or at a level where salaries are negotiable, then it won't matter.
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 18th Apr 17, 11:50 AM
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    Gavin83
    People bother because by exaggerating your salary by 2K, you start on 2K more at the new company than you otherwise would.

    What is idiotic is assuming that people don't constantly and routinely lie about things like this. Anyone who tells you they never lie is lying.

    People who don't have the resourcefulness to bump their current salary up a little in negotiations are likely not be very resourceful at all.
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I don't see how the current salary makes a difference to the new salary. If you've reached the negotiation stage they clearly want to employ you and I would have a salary in mind I'd be looking for and would tell the company. If they choose to lower their offer to less than I'm willing to accept based on my current salary then I'd walk away and they can find someone else. I'm willing to bet they wouldn't and they'd come to an agreement with you. It's an unnecessary thing to lie about as ultimately it makes no difference.

    Your also putting words in my mouth, I never said people never lie. I'd just rather people didn't lie to me. If people are stupid enough to get caught lying then they should expect their employment to be terminated. Also £2k depending on the salary might not even be worth worrying about, but certainly if someone had inflated their salary by more than 10% I'd be asking questions.

    I'd also suggest that having to resort to lying doesn't make you good at negotiating, certainly not as good as someone who can be up front, make it clear what they want and achieve that aim.

    Actually you raise a good point. Maybe people should lie if they aren't good at negotiating?

    We actually work in the same industry. How interesting.
    • dharm999
    • By dharm999 18th Apr 17, 9:04 PM
    • 293 Posts
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    dharm999
    We ask for a copy of the last 3 or 6 payslips depending on how senior the post is, to prove the salary someone has said they are on. It doesn't affect what we offer to pay someone, but for us it's a matter of trust.
    • Planet Switzerland
    • By Planet Switzerland 18th Apr 17, 11:03 PM
    • 111 Posts
    • 75 Thanks
    Planet Switzerland
    The way I see it is that if you know what the new job would pay then you probably have no need to exaggerate your current salary. If they try to offer you something lower, you need to stand your ground, they either offered you the job because you're the best candidate or the cheaper option. If the former, they have nothing to gain by offering it to someone else, if the latter you don't want to go there.


    However, if its negotiable, competitive etc or ranging from pathetic to very generous, then it may be worth overstating it.


    When I started out in my career, I foolishly was honest about my salary as I thought my salary in a basic admin role would have no bearing on what my first career job would offer me. I pointed that out to the agency, but they said my salary expectations were optimistic given what I was earning.


    What I was offered was pathetic, I worked out that when taking out deductions and extra petrol money I was getting £8 extra a week, not to mention the extra hour commuting each day. If it wasn't a job to get my foot on the ladder there's no way I would have taken it. The agency/employer knew that and took advantage.


    A couple of grand extra a year isn't going to make a great deal of difference to your wealth, but it would be quite hard to be content with your salary if you're consistently getting 2 grand below the market rate for what you do.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 19th Apr 17, 7:44 AM
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    We ask for a copy of the last 3 or 6 payslips depending on how senior the post is, to prove the salary someone has said they are on. It doesn't affect what we offer to pay someone, but for us it's a matter of trust.
    Originally posted by dharm999
    If it doesn't affect what you offer to pay someone then why do you even ask the question, let alone ask for proof?
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 19th Apr 17, 9:19 AM
    • 3,177 Posts
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    Undervalued
    If it doesn't affect what you offer to pay someone then why do you even ask the question, let alone ask for proof?
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    Because, as "dharm999" said it is a matter of trust.

    A lot of organisations, quite rightly, put a great deal of importance on honesty and integrity. If someone has lied as part of their application (which is technically fraud) then they may well not want to employ them. It is perfectly reasonable to ask for evidence to support any claims the applicant makes.

    You clearly think it is acceptable or normal to lie as part of a job application. Others would disagree.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 19th Apr 17, 10:12 AM
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    Because, as "dharm999" said it is a matter of trust.

    A lot of organisations, quite rightly, put a great deal of importance on honesty and integrity. If someone has lied as part of their application (which is technically fraud) then they may well not want to employ them. It is perfectly reasonable to ask for evidence to support any claims the applicant makes.

    You clearly think it is acceptable or normal to lie as part of a job application. Others would disagree.
    Originally posted by Undervalued
    They ask them a question about salary and then check the answer just to see if they can trust them; and don't in any way base the offer on the answer? Do you actually believe that?


    How can people make claims like that and in the same breath say that they don't lie?
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 19th Apr 17, 10:28 AM
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    Gavin83
    If it doesn't affect what you offer to pay someone then why do you even ask the question, let alone ask for proof?
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I agree with you on this one, it does seem somewhat pointless to ask.

    Of course potential employers ask this question to tailor your offer. However as the person applying for the job you shouldn't let them. I wouldn't let my current salary have any relation to the offer I get, even if they try and pull that trick.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 19th Apr 17, 10:53 AM
    • 3,289 Posts
    • 4,997 Thanks
    Malthusian
    We ask for a copy of the last 3 or 6 payslips depending on how senior the post is, to prove the salary someone has said they are on.
    Originally posted by dharm999
    That doesn't prove anything except whether they're savvy enough to say "I sacrificed part of my salary for a pension contribution".

    Of course you could then ask for their pension statement, but if you're going to go that far I'm not sure I'd want to work there anyway. It sounds like the kind of place that would put you in front of a disciplinary panel for taking an envelope from the stationery cupboard.

    Are you really going to employ the second best candidate for the job because the first one bent the truth about his current salary for negotiation purposes? Either you think he's worth the salary you've negotiated or you don't. If you pay peanuts you'll get monkeys.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 19th Apr 17, 10:56 AM
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    Nick_C
    When you are recruiting staff, you normally look at their employment history. This will be both the jobs they have done, and the salary they were being paid.

    If someone moves to a job earning the same or less money, it's an area to investigate.

    If someone has been promoted two or three times internally, its a point in their favour. This shows up in the salary they have been earning.

    If someone has been unemployed for a while and is applying for a job paying less than their previous salary, you need to consider how happy they would be if they took this job and how long they would be likely to stay.

    Of course, current salary will also have a bearing on what you offer a new recruit, but its not the only reason for asking the question.
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 19th Apr 17, 10:37 PM
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    Gavin83
    If someone moves to a job earning the same or less money, it's an area to investigate.
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    Surely this says more about the previous employer than it does about the employee? Only reason someone would move to a job with lower pay is due to a move to a lower paid area, better prospects/convenience or because they hated their employer.

    Of course, current salary will also have a bearing on what you offer a new recruit.
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    Again I don't see how it does as long as the potential employee isn't a complete walkover. I'd always have a salary I'd want when applying for a job. If they didn't offer that because of my previous salary then I'd thank them for their time and look elsewhere. Surely this is common sense?

    It's also a bad idea from the employers POV because if I did take the job I'd be looking to use it as a stepping stone into a role paying the salary I wanted.
    • dharm999
    • By dharm999 21st Apr 17, 7:36 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 227 Thanks
    dharm999
    If it doesn't affect what you offer to pay someone then why do you even ask the question, let alone ask for proof?
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    It's a matter of trust. If we are recruiting for as sales person, and the person being interviewed says they earned a certain amount including commission, then the payslips prove that. It shows us that what they said at the interview was true. We have withdrawn job offers when what someone earned was substantially different to what was said at interview.
    • dharm999
    • By dharm999 21st Apr 17, 7:39 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 227 Thanks
    dharm999
    They ask them a question about salary and then check the answer just to see if they can trust them; and don't in any way base the offer on the answer? Do you actually believe that?


    How can people make claims like that and in the same breath say that they don't lie?
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I don't know about places you've worked at but we make an offer subject to references and providing payslips. The offer is based on what they say at the interview not on the pay slips they provide after they are offered a job.
    • dharm999
    • By dharm999 21st Apr 17, 7:43 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 227 Thanks
    dharm999
    That doesn't prove anything except whether they're savvy enough to say "I sacrificed part of my salary for a pension contribution".

    Of course you could then ask for their pension statement, but if you're going to go that far I'm not sure I'd want to work there anyway. It sounds like the kind of place that would put you in front of a disciplinary panel for taking an envelope from the stationery cupboard.

    Are you really going to employ the second best candidate for the job because the first one bent the truth about his current salary for negotiation purposes? Either you think he's worth the salary you've negotiated or you don't. If you pay peanuts you'll get monkeys.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    No, we'll start again to find the best candidate. We make an offer based on what the person says at interview and the offer is subject to references and providing payslips. Have we withdrawn a job offer because the payslips show a significantly different amount, yes we have.
    • Giblets
    • By Giblets 21st Apr 17, 8:11 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Giblets
    I thought it was pretty standard practice to overstate your salary (and believe most employers expect this to a certain extent as it's a bit of a game)but within reason! Most of them appreciate you will want an increase to move, so take this into account (you don't want to push them above their budget).

    Having said if they ask you, there are often better ways of approaching this (especially if you are in a sales/ purchasing role (or any role that requires negotiation!)).
    Put off the question and talk along the lines of this job/ package is very different to the one you are in, I am sure you can put a very attractive offer to me.
    If it's an external role you should know the rough range of salaries they can offer! Then something along the lines of 'I understand that this role offers in the range of x-y... and put the question back to them!
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 16th Jun 17, 9:09 AM
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    Undervalued
    It is NOT fraud, what a foolish statement, fraud is a criminal offence, if you are going to make such comments please quote the law from legislation.gov.uk that specifically substantiates your comment.

    It is very common to exaggerate salary in certain roles.
    Originally posted by DavidP24
    It may be common but that does not make it legal.

    There used to be a separate offence of attempting to obtain a pecuniary advantage by deception. More recently it was incorporated into the Fraud Act of 2006. Section 2 is particularly relevant.

    By lying to a potential employer in order to increase your chances of obtaining a paid job or a higher salary you are committing fraud.

    To say "I won't work for you unless you pay me £X is fine" but to say "My current employer pays me £X when that is untrue is fraud".

    For your information.....

    Section 2 Fraud by false representation

    (1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
    (a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and
    (b) intends, by making the representation—
    (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
    (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

    (2) A representation is false if—
    (a )it is untrue or misleading, and
    (b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

    (3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
    (a) the person making the representation, or
    (b) any other person.

    (4) A representation may be express or implied.

    (5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

    Now, how about an apology?
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 16th Jun 17, 9:09 AM
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    TBagpuss
    Surely this says more about the previous employer than it does about the employee? Only reason someone would move to a job with lower pay is due to a move to a lower paid area, better prospects/convenience or because they hated their employer.
    Originally posted by Gavin83

    Or because they were allowed to resign from the previous job instead of being sacked.
    Or because they were dismissed from the earlier job
    The reasons why someone leaves a job for one with lower pay might be down to a bad employer but may also be down to a bad employee.

    On the more general issue about lying about your salary, its not OK because there is a trust issue. If you are asked about it you can always talk about your salary expectations rather than you current salary, which does not require you to lie.

    A lot of people may lie, but it is a bad idea. Most employers take a dim view of discovering that an employee or candidate is dishonest.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 16th Jun 17, 10:21 AM
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    Undervalued
    Of course no Apology because it simply would not apply in the context the OP outlines because there is no legal duty to disclose.

    You make yourself look even MORE foolish for suggesting it could.

    Honestly!!
    Originally posted by DavidP24
    That is complete irrelevant. They are deliberately making a false statement in an attempt to fraudulently obtain a financial advantage.

    As I said, they are totally free to say how much they want, what they are not entitled to do is to lie.

    Yes, prosecutions are rare but they can and do happen.

    In your previous post you demanded that I provided the legislation, which you implied didn't exist. I have done just that so I think you are the one looking foolish / ignorant!
    Last edited by Undervalued; 16-06-2017 at 10:25 AM.
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